USA TODAY article regarding FBI subpoenas, doctoring, etc......

[slidekellyslide]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Ryan, Al's post today was a sobering reminder that I've been complaining about hobby fraud for more than a decade now and, as he rightly put it, zero has changed. Another tipping point was trying unsuccessfully to get an obviously cleaned card taken down from an active auction. I'm like, what's the use?

It also has to suck when your compadre is minimizing PWCC's involvement by saying it's only a couple hundred cards and hundreds of PWCC customers have already been refunded. I guess it's all over then. Jeff was looking out for us after all.

[Peter_Spaeth]

One, he actually said hundreds, not a couple of hundred. Two, it's a quote by a lawyer to the media, it won't affect anything. Three, my understanding is that Jeff has obtained over $1 million in restitution so far. While obviously I hope much more is done to punish the culpable, I do think that's for the good.

[edhans]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

One, he actually said hundreds, not a couple of hundred. Two, it's a quote by a lawyer to the media, it won't affect anything. Three, my understanding is that Jeff has obtained over $1 million in restitution so far. While obviously I hope much more is done to punish the culpable, I do think that's for the good.

+1

[rats60]

I may be naive, but the FBI is involved and I don't think they are going to leave things status quo. The FBI doesn't want to be fielding another investigation in a year or so with evidence from BODA with the same bad actors. Much like autographs, I see a big change. We will probably always have dishonest people altering cards and trying to pass them by TPGs, the same as we see with autos, but at a smaller scale. I had several dealers at the National tell me that TPGs are under pressure to tighten things up. They may lose business from card doctors, but they are a lot more profitable than they were in the past. It is a better option than dealing with the FBI. Maybe they will be able to meet their grading deadlines.

I talked with a number of collectors at the National about this too. The consensus is they are taking more care and buying less. When they buy something, they are no longer trusting TPGs and the slab. They are measuring and closely examining cards before deciding to keep them or send them back. I wouldn't put it past those who are heavily invested in slabs to be buying/shilling auctions to make it appear like things are still going strong while they try to liquidate. We saw that happen in 2016 with certain rookie cards. I am hopeful that at some point a new company will come along with new technology to detect altered cards, making it close to impossible for doctors to pass off their work on collectors.

[ullmandds]

Originally Posted by rats60

I may be naive, but the FBI is involved and I don't think they are going to leave things status quo. The FBI doesn't want to be fielding another investigation in a year or so with evidence from BODA with the same bad actors. Much like autographs, I see a big change. We will probably always have dishonest people altering cards and trying to pass them by TPGs, the same as we see with autos, but at a smaller scale. I had several dealers at the National tell me that TPGs are under pressure to tighten things up. They may lose business from card doctors, but they are a lot more profitable than they were in the past. It is a better option than dealing with the FBI. Maybe they will be able to meet their grading deadlines.

I talked with a number of collectors at the National about this too. The consensus is they are taking more care and buying less. When they buy something, they are no longer trusting TPGs and the slab. They are measuring and closely examining cards before deciding to keep them or send them back. I wouldn't put it past those who are heavily invested in slabs to be buying/shilling auctions to make it appear like things are still going strong while they try to liquidate. We saw that happen in 2016 with certain rookie cards. I am hopeful that at some point a new company will come along with new technology to detect altered cards, making it close to impossible for doctors to pass off their work on collectors.

+1

[WhenItWasAHobby]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

One, he actually said hundreds, not a couple of hundred. Two, it's a quote by a lawyer to the media, it won't affect anything. Three, my understanding is that Jeff has obtained over $1 million in restitution so far. While obviously I hope much more is done to punish the culpable, I do think that's for the good.

That's interesting that over $1 million has been paid in restitution so far. I would be curious to know if the customer's confidence in PSA has changed as a result in realizing some of their cards have been doctored or will it be business as usual?

It would disgust me to no end that PSA would get away with not paying any damages regarding this scandal. Hopefully they will shoulder the burden at some point as an incentive to clean up their act and be more vigilant in screening out the card doctors.

[perezfan]

Originally Posted by WhenItWasAHobby

That's interesting that over $1 million has been paid in restitution so far. I would be curious to know if the customer's confidence in PSA has changed as a result in realizing some of their cards have been doctored or will it be business as usual?

It would disgust me to no end that PSA would get away with not paying any damages regarding this scandal. Hopefully they will shoulder the burden at some point as an incentive to clean up their act and be more vigilant in screening out the card doctors.

+1

If PSA gets off scot free, then nothing is solved. As mentioned earlier, it's great that PWCC is refunding customers... certainly better than the alternative.

But that does not fix anything, moving forward. If we stop at simply issuing refunds, the same thing will occur again in the not so distant future. The punishment for card doctors and complicit auction houses must be severe and lengthy. And there must be a change in the way TPGs operate. A new set of standards must be implemented or forced upon them, as they cannot be trusted to police themselves. There is absolutely no safeguard in place to protect the customer/collector. Hopefully law enforcement will help to fill that role.

If not, then indeed nothing will change.

[Johnny630]

Originally Posted by perezfan

+1

If PSA gets off scot free, then nothing is solved. As mentioned earlier, it's great that PWCC is refunding customers... certainly better than the alternative.

But that does not fix anything, moving forward. If we stop at simply issuing refunds, the same thing will occur again in the not so distant future. The punishment for card doctors and complicit auction houses must be severe and lengthy. And there must be a change in the way TPGs operate. A new set of standards must be implemented or forced upon them, as they cannot be trusted to police themselves. There is absolutely no safeguard in place to protect the customer/collector. Hopefully law enforcement will help to fill that role.

If not, then indeed nothing will change.

If the past is indicative of future results I’d say unfortunately PSA will get away with it again .....Registry is and will continue to be the brilliance that keeps them in business it’s a shame but Big Money Trumps All ....I would be surprised if PSA takes any Or is held accountable with anything.
It’s up to the Market/Consumers to put PSA in it’s place not LE.

[barrysloate]

Originally Posted by Johnny630

If the past is indicative of future results I’d say unfortunately PSA will get away with it again .....Registry is and will continue to be the brilliance that keeps them in business it’s a shame but Big Money Trumps All ....I would be surprised if PSA takes any Or is held accountable with anything.
It’s up to the Market/Consumers to put PSA in it’s place not LE.

Johnny- at the end of the day it will be the buyer, and not PSA, who will determine what all these slabbed cards are worth. We have no certainty where this is all heading, but if the buyers lose confidence prices will fall. Yes, some will hold onto their slabbed cards for dear life, but the buyers and not the sellers will be in control of the situation.

[keithsky]

It's sad because when PSA started there was no set rules about grading they made up there own rules and everyone followed right along. They didn't have anyone to tell them what was right or wrong because there was no grading before that. That is why there needs to be set standards or something for these TPG to abide to otherwise they will just keep slipping under the radar forever.

[Johnny630]

Originally Posted by barrysloate

Johnny- at the end of the day it will be the buyer, and not PSA, who will determine what all these slabbed cards are worth. We have no certainty where this is all heading, but if the buyers lose confidence prices will fall. Yes, some will hold onto their slabbed cards for dear life, but the buyers and not the sellers will be in control of the situation.

Exactly

[BeanTown]

Originally Posted by slidekellyslide

It also has to suck when your compadre is minimizing PWCC's involvement by saying it's only a couple hundred cards and hundreds of PWCC customers have already been refunded. I guess it's all over then. Jeff was looking out for us after all.

+1