USA TODAY article regarding FBI subpoenas, doctoring, etc......

Peter_Spaeth · #1 08-08-2019, 09:39 AM

I could make a joke asking whether certain people there trimmed their slices, but never mind.

barrysloate · #2 08-08-2019, 09:42 AM

It was a constructive meeting, and I do remember Doug Allen was kind of on top of the world, bragging about Mastro Auctions. And Dave Forman drove me home that night, which I greatly appreciated.

Johnny630 · #3 08-08-2019, 09:48 AM

Was the point of the meeting? to show just how difficult it was to catch altered cards ?

ALR-bishop · #4 08-08-2019, 09:54 AM

I think USA Today survives now through sales to hotels world wide and cruise ships.

Aquarian Sports Cards · #5 08-08-2019, 10:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Johnny630

Was the point of the meeting? to show just how difficult it was to catch altered cards ?

Yeah it struck me as a subtle way of telling people, hey you can probably get altered cards past TPG's

Johnny630 · #6 08-08-2019, 10:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aquarian Sports Cards

Yeah it struck me as a subtle way of telling people, hey you can probably get altered cards past TPG's

Exactly Scott Was thinking the same thing here

Big Money Players get put on notice first.

Al C.risafulli · #7 08-08-2019, 10:33 AM

I still prefer the Ramones, though I think "London Calling" is the greatest rock and roll record of all time.

Peter, if I remember this correctly, I think there was a lot of derision around the idea that one person could organize a meeting to "clean up the hobby," particularly one who had a collection filled with high-grade, graded cards. But if you remember, the response to that Thanksgiving Day thread was pretty dramatic, very similar to what's happening today, and Jim had great intentions.

At the time , there was a lot of talk from a variety of guys with a variety of ideas, just like there is today. I remember being skeptical that anything could be accomplished, but being flattered to have been asked - and subsequently being surprised to see a representative from an auction house and a grading company involved with a meeting that I thought was intended to be some collectors discussing what could be done.

At that meeting, and also today, my feeling has been the same: if collectors want the hobby clean, they will stop doing business with bad actors. Stop consigning, stop bidding, stop buying. If there's no money in it, the bad guys will leave the hobby or clean up.

-Al

Peter_Spaeth · #8 08-08-2019, 10:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Al C.risafulli

I still prefer the Ramones, though I think "London Calling" is the greatest rock and roll record of all time.

Peter, if I remember this correctly, I think there was a lot of derision around the idea that one person could organize a meeting to "clean up the hobby," particularly one who had a collection filled with high-grade, graded cards. But if you remember, the response to that Thanksgiving Day thread was pretty dramatic, very similar to what's happening today, and Jim had great intentions.

At the time , there was a lot of talk from a variety of guys with a variety of ideas, just like there is today. I remember being skeptical that anything could be accomplished, but being flattered to have been asked - and subsequently being surprised to see a representative from an auction house and a grading company involved with a meeting that I thought was intended to be some collectors discussing what could be done.

At that meeting, and also today, my feeling has been the same: if collectors want the hobby clean, they will stop doing business with bad actors. Stop consigning, stop bidding, stop buying. If there's no money in it, the bad guys will leave the hobby or clean up.

-Al

Al. a decade after this meeting, I guess the conclusion is inevitable -- collectors as a whole don't really want the hobby clean. Even less so now that so many are investors. And as a whole (with some notable exceptions such as yourself), the industry doesn't want to clean itself up either. I should just give up my own meager efforts because the windmill is going to win. Thanks for the perspective, sobering but necessary.

benjulmag · #9 08-08-2019, 11:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

AL, a decade after this meeting, I guess the conclusion is inevitable -- collectors don't really want the hobby clean. Even less so now that so many are investors. And as a whole (with some notable exceptions such as yourself), the industry doesn't want to clean itself up either. I should just give up my own meager efforts because the windmill is going to win. Thanks for the perspective, sobering but necessary.

The most powerful force I can think of to solve most anything is market force -- people acting in the manner most consistent with their economic interests. How does that pertain here? If and when there is a TPG alternative that through the use of technology can weed out alterations, then to hold value cards will have to reholdered by this new method.

Yes, I recognize that there is skepticism such a new grading method will come into being. But let's proceed on the assumption that it does come into being. It would not then be up to the seller to determine what grading method will create the most value for his/her card. It would be up to the buyer, and what rational buyer would not prefer the card in the new TPG holder, all other things being equal (e.g., player, issue, grade).

What am I missing with this analysis?

Edited to add that what I am saying IS consistent with the notion "that it is all about the money". The incentive to create a new TPG using technology to weed out alterations is because the founder(s) of such a company I believe can make a lot of money. And should that come to pass, then what buyer before spending his/her money on a high grade vintage card would not want to see it in this new TPG's holder?

rats60 · #10 08-08-2019, 11:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Al. a decade after this meeting, I guess the conclusion is inevitable -- collectors as a whole don't really want the hobby clean. Even less so now that so many are investors. And as a whole (with some notable exceptions such as yourself), the industry doesn't want to clean itself up either. I should just give up my own meager efforts because the windmill is going to win. Thanks for the perspective, sobering but necessary.

I disagree with this. I do think they want the hobby cleaned up. The problem is the ability to detect alterations. Once there is a company that can do this at a high rate, I think buyers will want their cards to be inspected upon purchase. Cash is king and the buyers hold all the power. Once altered cards can no longer be sold to buyers, only then will things change for the better.

Kenny Cole · #11 08-08-2019, 10:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Al C.risafulli

I

At that meeting, and also today, my feeling has been the same: if collectors want the hobby clean, they will stop doing business with bad actors. Stop consigning, stop bidding, stop buying. If there's no money in it, the bad guys will leave the hobby or clean up.

-Al

This

Yoda · #12 08-09-2019, 12:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Al C.risafulli

I still prefer the Ramones, though I think "London Calling" is the greatest rock and roll record of all time.

Peter, if I remember this correctly, I think there was a lot of derision around the idea that one person could organize a meeting to "clean up the hobby," particularly one who had a collection filled with high-grade, graded cards. But if you remember, the response to that Thanksgiving Day thread was pretty dramatic, very similar to what's happening today, and Jim had great intentions.

At the time , there was a lot of talk from a variety of guys with a variety of ideas, just like there is today. I remember being skeptical that anything could be accomplished, but being flattered to have been asked - and subsequently being surprised to see a representative from an auction house and a grading company involved with a meeting that I thought was intended to be some collectors discussing what could be done.

At that meeting, and also today, my feeling has been the same: if collectors want the hobby clean, they will stop doing business with bad actors. Stop consigning, stop bidding, stop buying. If there's no money in it, the bad guys will leave the hobby or clean up.

-Al

Al, I can perhaps understand your feelings about the Beatles. But what about those nice London boys, the Sex Pistols who were punk pioneers? Strangely enough, many have said they were talentless outlaws. I must admit to being mildly amused by their band names, Johnny Rotten and Sid Vicious. I was living in London at the time when they hit the scene, causing quite a commotion and lots of controversy.

Al C.risafulli · #13 08-08-2019, 09:55 AM

I was there, and I did have pizza. Barry's timeline is correct, it was a Net54 thread that I think happened on Thanksgiving Day of 2007 that precipitated the whole thing, and I seem to remember it being really cold outside, so it was likely that winter.

I had a lovely conversation with Barry, who it was a pleasure to meet in person for the very first time (leading off with "I don't like the Beatles" is probably not the best way to make a first impression). I also recall having a chat with Keith, who is a fascinating guy and a pleasure to talk to each of the handful of times I've been fortunate enough to be in his company. Michael Sarno was also there, it was the first time I'd met him and he's turned into a good pal over the years.

If I recall, not only was the meeting not secret, it was pretty widely discussed on the boards. I don't remember how I wound up at the meeting, but I remember being flattered to have been included. Jim was trying to figure out a way to get the bad cards out of the hobby, and while his intentions were good, I remember leaving the meeting thinking that it wasn't going to be possible to fix this from within, because every collector's idea of which people are ethical, and every collector's idea of what was ok to do to a card, was filled with shades of gray.

Aside from getting to be in the esteemed company of Barry and Keith, and meeting a guy (Michael) who turned out to be a longtime friend, as you can see from where we are today, we unfortunately accomplished zero.

-Al

barrysloate · #14 08-08-2019, 10:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Al C.risafulli

I was there, and I did have pizza. Barry's timeline is correct, it was a Net54 thread that I think happened on Thanksgiving Day of 2007 that precipitated the whole thing, and I seem to remember it being really cold outside, so it was likely that winter.

I had a lovely conversation with Barry, who it was a pleasure to meet in person for the very first time (leading off with "I don't like the Beatles" is probably not the best way to make a first impression). I also recall having a chat with Keith, who is a fascinating guy and a pleasure to talk to each of the handful of times I've been fortunate enough to be in his company. Michael Sarno was also there, it was the first time I'd met him and he's turned into a good pal over the years.

If I recall, not only was the meeting not secret, it was pretty widely discussed on the boards. I don't remember how I wound up at the meeting, but I remember being flattered to have been included. Jim was trying to figure out a way to get the bad cards out of the hobby, and while his intentions were good, I remember leaving the meeting thinking that it wasn't going to be possible to fix this from within, because every collector's idea of which people are ethical, and every collector's idea of what was ok to do to a card, was filled with shades of gray.

Aside from getting to be in the esteemed company of Barry and Keith, and meeting a guy (Michael) who turned out to be a longtime friend, as you can see from where we are today, we unfortunately accomplished zero.

-Al

I was thinking Sarno might have been there too, and that would have been my first time meeting him. And yes, grading and authenticating was the gist of it.

Al- I also remembered you said you liked the Ramones over the Clash, and I kind of was leaning toward the Clash as being more important. See how I remember the silly stuff?

Keith H. Thompson · #15 08-08-2019, 10:56 AM

There were several different kinds of pizza. At the end of the meeting there were at least two left over untouched and mint in the box. Jim said they would be thrown out otherwise, so I took two home. One I gave to a homeless man at the corner of 38th and Park on my way to my son's apartment. I realize now that the only thing he was interested in was hard currency, but it made me feel good. The other I enjoyed with my son, compliments of Jim. I grew up in the depth of the Great Depression, and I still can't bear to see food go to waste. Those who were with me at Barry's New York Net54 meeting at Spark's Steak House a few years ago can attest. With regard to which, I have never thanked Wondo properly for picking up the check. The largest I have ever seen in my life.

Barry did pin Dave Foreman down on the matter of the matter of repeated submissions. My conversations with Doug Allen were private on other matters, like Bob Shawkey's 1927 WS Ring, but Mastro was indeed on top of the Hobby, and Doug could orate from strength. He had to do some bobbing and weaving but managed to leave the impression that a "small percentage" of cards might be altered.

I am a Mathematical Statistician by profession, and I would introduce at this time to the Net54 conversation the perception and psychological value of the "5% level" to the layman's eye that an observed event that can occur by chance "less than 5% under some appropriate Null Hypothesis" is real, and that "greater than 5%" might be, well, simply due to chance.

An example would be when the Players Association replied to Canseco's charges of drug use that "maybe less than 5% might be users." It is still being used today as some kind of magic number that "we cannot control" and therefore okay.

I stand with those who say that a single example of altering offends.

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