ethical question

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

I would not refund the buyer. Here's why and I'll use a similar example.

Let's say you make your living buying and selling cars. You purchase a car through the auto action with the intention to resell it for a profit. A year later, the car has a transmission problem, however the car does have the remainder of it's factory warranty. Do you refund the buyer, or would you expect the buyer to deal with manufacturer? I think the answer is obvious to any logical person.

The buyer of the card should deal with the TPG regarding their guarantee, just as the buyer of the car should deal with the manufacturer regarding the warranty.

Suppose the car had a defective transmission when it was sold. Same analysis? Not advocating for any position here, just trying to flesh out the question.

[vintagetoppsguy]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Suppose the car had a defective transmission when it was sold. Same analysis? Not advocating for any position here, just trying to flesh out the question.

Ok, let's assume the car had a bad transmission at the time of sale. Whether the seller really was unaware or did know and just wanted to make a quick buck, the answer is still the same either way. The car has a warranty - a guarantee - and its up to the owner (the new buyer of the car) to resolve warranty issues with the party that makes the warranty (guarantee). This is the way it works in everyday life. I'm not sure why we look at cards differently.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

Ok, let's assume the car had a bad transmission at the time of sale. Whether the seller really was unaware or did know and just wanted to make a quick buck, the answer is still the same either way. The car has a warranty - a guarantee - and its up to the owner (the new buyer of the car) to resolve warranty issues with the party that makes the warranty (guarantee). This is the way it works in everyday life. I'm not sure why we look at cards differently.

Does it work that way in real life? There are lemon laws in many states entitling buyers to return defective vehicles.

[vintagetoppsguy]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Does it work that way in real life? There are lemon laws in many states entitling buyers to return defective vehicles.

True, but only after all warranty claims have been exhausted.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

True, but only after all warranty claims have been exhausted.

So the buyer is not at risk -- either the dealer (as agent for the manufacturer) can fix the defect or the buyer gets his or her money back. In this case, by your reasoning, it's all on the buyer, and if the TPG stiffs him on the guarantee he's out of luck.

[vintagetoppsguy]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

So the buyer is not at risk -- either the dealer (as agent for the manufacturer) can fix the defect or the buyer gets his or her money back. In this case, by your reasoning, it's all on the buyer, and if the TPG stiffs him on the guarantee he's out of luck.

Yes, exactly. He's out of luck. Sorry, but that IS the way it works. If I sell you a car that's still under factory warranty and it breaks down and the dealership decides they're not going to honor their warranty (and this really does happen more often than you think), that isn't 5he sellers fault that the one that made the warranty isn't going to honor their warranty. That's what a civil lawsuit is for, right? When someone won't honor their guarantee?

[1952boyntoncollector]

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

Yes, exactly. He's out of luck. Sorry, but that IS the way it works. If I sell you a car that's still under factory warranty and it breaks down and the dealership decides they're not going to honor their warranty (and this really does happen more often than you think), that isn't 5he sellers fault that the one that made the warranty isn't going to honor their warranty. That's what a civil lawsuit is for, right? When someone won't honor their guarantee?

funny you should mention civil lawsuits...there have been no civil lawsuits ....too costly, jurisdiction so far away, not worth it according to members on this board..what choice to they have but just wait ......so why argue all this theory when everyone said lawsuits are last resort because of legal fees and giving the chance to people to pay back the buyers.....everyone is happy apparently because no lawsuits.


i also agree the analogy of the car situation is not comparable......maybe an exclusive PSA dealer.....when you buy a card from a dealer , they say no refunds after 30 days etc...they dont hawk the great PSA guarantee.....car dealers/even used ones. always hawk the great gurantee/warranty as an inducement to sell the vehicle.

[Peter_Spaeth]

It's a bit different because there it's a seller, or at least related party (dealer is acting as agent of manufacturer) warranty. Here, it's a third party guarantee. Which should cover both seller and buyer, assuming the seller didn't submit the doctored card but bought it already doctored. So why is the burden on the buyer not the seller especially if a dealer? It doesn't bother you that under your analysis, a dealer is not standing behind his card?

[vintagetoppsguy]

Peter, if I sold you a card that was PSA graded and was later found out to be doctored and you decided to take me to small claims court, what would the judge say when I told him/her the card has a guarantee by the company that authenticated it? I've never been to a small claims court, but I'd imagine the judge would dismiss the case and tell you to deal with party which made the guarantee. If that's not correct, please let me know.

[vintagetoppsguy]

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

True, but only after all warranty claims have been exhausted.

In other words, you can't go buy a vehicle (new or used) and have the transmission fail 3 months later and say you want your money back based on the Lemon Law. You have to give them a reasonable opportunity to resolve the issue.

Which actually brings me to another point. Let's say you go buy a pre-owned Chevy from the Ford dealership and the vehicle is still under factory warranty. If a problem arises, do you take that Chevy back to the Ford dealership that sold it to you, or do you go to the Chevy dealership - the ones that made the warranty?

The card purchase works the same way.

[1952boyntoncollector]

Same thing with stolen art when seller who bought the item 30 years ago didnt realize the art was stolen 20 years prior to his purchase and changed hands 5 times...

if the original act was criminal it doesnt matter how many times it changed hands..you dont have clean hands defense

you are arguing a clean hands defense basically...if the action is criminal/fraud you dont get that defense...

its unfair burden on victim to track everyone down....of course the seller who just reimbursed the money can now go after the person that sold him the card ..

[drcy]

Originally Posted by 1952boyntoncollector

Same thing with stolen art when seller who bought the item 30 years ago didnt realize the art was stolen 20 years prior to his purchase and changed hands 5 times...

if the original act was criminal it doesnt matter how many times it changed hands..you dont have clean hands defense

you are arguing a clean hands defense basically...if the action is criminal/fraud you dont get that defense...

its unfair burden on victim to track everyone down....of course the seller who just reimbursed the money can now go after the person that sold him the card ..

That's a different situation because seller (and and buyer) never legally owned the item. There never was a legal sale.

My opinion is there are different ways of handling the OP's question. If you wanted to refund it you can, but it is also fair to tell the buyer to the TPA. For better or worse, the TPA has set themselves up as guaranteer. Unlike some situations, I don't think one choice is more or less ethical than the other.

Though I've never been keen on auction houses that use the TPA to wash their hands of the issue. Auctions houses are supposed to be experts too.

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

In other words, you can't go buy a vehicle (new or used) and have the transmission fail 3 months later and say you want your money back based on the Lemon Law. You have to give them a reasonable opportunity to resolve the issue.

Which actually brings me to another point. Let's say you go buy a pre-owned Chevy from the Ford dealership and the vehicle is still under factory warranty. If a problem arises, do you take that Chevy back to the Ford dealership that sold it to you, or do you go to the Chevy dealership - the ones that made the warranty?

The card purchase works the same way.

Please tell me how selling used cars has anything to do with selling baseball cards. One is regulated and has very specific laws and the other has none. We so need that face palm emoji.

[Fuddjcal]

Originally Posted by bnorth

Please tell me how selling used cars has anything to do with selling baseball cards. One is regulated and has very specific laws and the other has none. We so need that face palm emoji.

Thanks Ben, I am so SICK of CAR ANALOGIES. It's Re-TARDED already.

[vintagetoppsguy]

Originally Posted by bnorth

Please tell me how selling used cars has anything to do with selling baseball cards. One is regulated and has very specific laws and the other has none. We so need that face palm emoji.

It's similar in that they both offer a guarantee and in the event of a claim, you deal with the company that makes the guarantee.

Yes face palm emoji definitely needed.

[Mark17]

Let's say TPG company XYZ grades a card a 4. At that point, that card "becomes" a XYZ 4. So if an innocent person (someone who is unaware of any alterations/fraud) buys it, they have bought a XYZ 4. If they then sell it, they are selling a correctly described XYZ 4.

So the issue later becomes whether or not the TPG should have graded the card a XYZ 4 in the first place. If a mistake was made at that point, that would be where the responsibility lies.

It's similar to any mis-graded card. If a TPG grades a card a 6 when it should've been a 3, that card will still be honestly and ethically bought and sold as a XYZ 6.

My point is, when company XYZ gives a card a grade, that card is then correctly represented as a card with that grade, and no subsequent seller who is unaware of any fraud involving that card has any responsibility for the grade that card was given.

If I buy a graded card from an honest dealer that later turns out to have been altered, I would not ask or expect the seller to accept a return, because he sold me an accurately described card.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Mark17

Let's say TPG company XYZ grades a card a 4. At that point, that card "becomes" a XYZ 4. So if an innocent person (someone who is unaware of any alterations/fraud) buys it, they have bought a XYZ 4. If they then sell it, they are selling a correctly described XYZ 4.

So the issue later becomes whether or not the TPG should have graded the card a XYZ 4 in the first place. If a mistake was made at that point, that would be where the responsibility lies.

It's similar to any mis-graded card. If a TPG grades a card a 6 when it should've been a 3, that card will still be honestly and ethically bought and sold as a XYZ 6.

My point is, when company XYZ gives a card a grade, that card is then correctly represented as a card with that grade, and no subsequent seller who is unaware of any fraud involving that card has any responsibility for the grade that card was given.

If I buy a graded card from an honest dealer that later turns out to have been altered, I would not ask or expect the seller to accept a return, because he sold me an accurately described card.

Mark, if there were no TPG guarantees, as in the case of a Beckett card, would you feel the same way? I expect you might but just clarifying thanks.

[Kenny Cole]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Mark, if there were no TPG guarantees, as in the case of a Beckett card, would you feel the same way? I expect you might but just clarifying thanks.

I think if you even have to ask the question, you probably know the answer. I would refund because I would intuitively feel that was the right thing to do. That's just me though.

[Mark17]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Mark, if there were no TPG guarantees, as in the case of a Beckett card, would you feel the same way? I expect you might but just clarifying thanks.

Peter, it is a good and fair question and my answer would be that while I would not blame the seller for misrepresentation, if I was unhappy with the card (based on the revelation it had been doctored at some point) I may ask if I can return it based on the fact I am not happy with it.

The difference is that if Beckett is grading cards while making no guarantees, then that is not much different than my mailman glancing at a card, shrugging his shoulders, and saying "Looks real to me." In other words I would consider a graded card with no TPG guarantee to be essentially a raw card, and I do think buyers should be able to return raw cards to sellers within a reasonable time frame.

[SMPEP]

There's a variety of scenarios to consider:

First, if you were the original submitter to the TPG, then you absolutely should take the card back no matter what and go after the TPG. You brought the altered card into the hobby by accident. (NOTE: I assume by accident in this case, because let's face it, if you were the person who did the undetected alteration - you're not accepting a return no matter what. You have no honor or ethics and have already demonstrated that.) If you are the original submitter to the TPG though, you have direct claim on the TPG, and the TPG should pay for their mistake. That's who really bears the ultimate responsibility in every case.


If you were a purchaser and then reseller of the card, then I think It's important what you disclosed in the auction.

I've seen a lot of sellers on Ebay say" No returns on graded cards." In that case I think it's fair not to accept the return. You made your policy clear to the buyer. The buyer knew they should rely on the TPG opinion. The buyer knew you would not accept a return. So, they made an fully informed choice on the purchase.

If the seller hasn't stated this policy (and is not within your usual return policy time frame), then that's a gray area. As someone who only buys or sells TPG cards by accident (because they were part of a lot of cards for example), I do not know how to evaluate cards the way a TPG does. As a seller, I would rely that the TPG got it right, and would sell it as such. I would have no idea that it isn't a legitimate grade. I also may not know who I bought that card from, and even if I did, I'd have no way to know if that seller would take the card back. So, in my opinion, I don't think accepting or rejecting the return is CLEARLY right or wrong in this case. I'd say that's up to the individual seller and their conscious and business model.

Cheers,
Patrick