ethical question

[vintagetoppsguy]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

So the buyer is not at risk -- either the dealer (as agent for the manufacturer) can fix the defect or the buyer gets his or her money back. In this case, by your reasoning, it's all on the buyer, and if the TPG stiffs him on the guarantee he's out of luck.

Yes, exactly. He's out of luck. Sorry, but that IS the way it works. If I sell you a car that's still under factory warranty and it breaks down and the dealership decides they're not going to honor their warranty (and this really does happen more often than you think), that isn't 5he sellers fault that the one that made the warranty isn't going to honor their warranty. That's what a civil lawsuit is for, right? When someone won't honor their guarantee?

[1952boyntoncollector]

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

Yes, exactly. He's out of luck. Sorry, but that IS the way it works. If I sell you a car that's still under factory warranty and it breaks down and the dealership decides they're not going to honor their warranty (and this really does happen more often than you think), that isn't 5he sellers fault that the one that made the warranty isn't going to honor their warranty. That's what a civil lawsuit is for, right? When someone won't honor their guarantee?

funny you should mention civil lawsuits...there have been no civil lawsuits ....too costly, jurisdiction so far away, not worth it according to members on this board..what choice to they have but just wait ......so why argue all this theory when everyone said lawsuits are last resort because of legal fees and giving the chance to people to pay back the buyers.....everyone is happy apparently because no lawsuits.


i also agree the analogy of the car situation is not comparable......maybe an exclusive PSA dealer.....when you buy a card from a dealer , they say no refunds after 30 days etc...they dont hawk the great PSA guarantee.....car dealers/even used ones. always hawk the great gurantee/warranty as an inducement to sell the vehicle.

[Peter_Spaeth]

It's a bit different because there it's a seller, or at least related party (dealer is acting as agent of manufacturer) warranty. Here, it's a third party guarantee. Which should cover both seller and buyer, assuming the seller didn't submit the doctored card but bought it already doctored. So why is the burden on the buyer not the seller especially if a dealer? It doesn't bother you that under your analysis, a dealer is not standing behind his card?

[1952boyntoncollector]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

It's a bit different because there it's a seller, or at least related party (dealer is acting as agent of manufacturer) warranty. Here, it's a third party guarantee. Which should cover both seller and buyer, assuming the seller didn't submit the doctored card but bought it already doctored. So why is the burden on the buyer not the seller especially if a dealer? It doesn't bother you that under your analysis, a dealer is not standing behind his card?

card Seller is not vouching for a third party PSA ...if the holder was altered an cracked and PSA would not guarantee it thats a different situation.

there are fly by night third party insurers out there. They go bankrupt as well, why would dealer be responsible for the actions of non related third party that hey have no direct interest with.

Crime/fraud is different and last seller has duty to return payment back to innocent buyer..

[Snapolit1]

Originally Posted by 1952boyntoncollector

card Seller is not vouching for a third party PSA ...if the holder was altered an cracked and PSA would not guarantee it thats a different situation.

there are fly by night third party insurers out there. They go bankrupt as well, why would dealer be responsible for the actions of non related third party that hey have no direct interest with.

Crime/fraud is different and last seller has duty to return payment back to innocent buyer..

Not only is the seller in most cases not vouching for the TPG, in most cases they expressly disavow any expertise, reliance, etc. Obviously I'm talking big sellers and not just some dude at a show.

[vintagetoppsguy]

Peter, if I sold you a card that was PSA graded and was later found out to be doctored and you decided to take me to small claims court, what would the judge say when I told him/her the card has a guarantee by the company that authenticated it? I've never been to a small claims court, but I'd imagine the judge would dismiss the case and tell you to deal with party which made the guarantee. If that's not correct, please let me know.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

Peter, if I sold you a card that was PSA graded and was later found out to be doctored and you decided to take me to small claims court, what would the judge say when I told him/her the card has a guarantee by the company that authenticated it? I've never been to a small claims court, but I'd imagine the judge would dismiss the case and tell you to deal with party which made the guarantee. If that's not correct, please let me know.

The judge might also tell you to take the card back because I have a legitimate claim for rescission of the sale based on mutual mistake (the authenticity of the card), and that you can then get recourse against the TPG under the guarantee.

I'm not sure without further analysis whether the guarantee affects whether I have a contract claim against you. I suspect it doesn't. Different situation from a manufacturer warranty where I buy from the dealer subject to the terms of the warranty. Put another way, the TPG guarantee is not part of our contract.

[1952boyntoncollector]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

The judge might also tell you to take the card back because I have a legitimate claim for rescission of the sale based on mutual mistake (the authenticity of the card), and that you can then get recourse against the TPG under the guarantee.

I'm not sure without further analysis whether the guarantee affects whether I have a contract claim against you. I suspect it doesn't. Different situation from a manufacturer warranty where I buy from the dealer subject to the terms of the warranty. Put another way, the TPG guarantee is not part of our contract.

If TPG says they have new criteria now and even altered they now grade it the same as the grade you bought it for ..now what.... guess everyone happy..