Do Pre-War Collectors buy Modern Cards Featurin Game Used Items of Pre-War Players

[68Hawk]

Originally Posted by oldjudge

I feel sorry for you, that you are so selfish and self centered that you would rather have a meaningless scrap of a once significant piece of memorabilia than keep the piece together so future generations could enjoy it in its’ original state. Thank goodness there aren’t too many people like you.

Oh boy, can I replace pious with sanctimonious and ass-hole ish from my previous post replying to you?

You feel sorry for me, for enjoying a piece of memorabilia and paper differently to you?
Good lord. How will the world survive.
Fortunately when you and I are both gone future generations will similarly have their chance to decide how to best enjoy this 'stuff', and neither of us will have any say in it.
I wouldn't have it any other way, however I have a feeling you would rather burn everything down than have people decide for themselves they enjoy it differently from you.

[Orioles1954]

Originally Posted by 68Hawk

Oh boy, can I replace pious with sanctimonious and ass-hole ish from my previous post replying to you?

You feel sorry for me, for enjoying a piece of memorabilia and paper differently to you?
Good lord. How will the world survive.
Fortunately when you and I are both gone future generations will similarly have their chance to decide how to best enjoy this 'stuff', and neither of us will have any say in it.
I wouldn't have it any other way, however I have a feeling you would rather burn everything down than have people decide for themselves they enjoy it differently from you.

I agree. At the end of the day, these are inanimate objects that will outlive us all.

[seanofjapan]

I hate them.

Its not just the destruction of history, though I am generally in the "I'd rather the whole thing be preserved" camp.

For me the things are just tacky anachronisms. I don't feel any history when I look at them because the card they are housed in (which makes up the majority of the item) is a modern, glitzy piece of plastic that screams "modern" at you. The fact that they have a wood chip or tiny shred of clothing that may (or may not for all I know) have at one point been part of something that was used by Babe Ruth or Ty Cobb or somebody just gets totally lost in the shiny glare of the foil embossed plastic they put these things in. When I hold one or look at one, I don't feel like I'm looking at history, I feel like I am looking at something extremely modern (which I am, memorabilia cards obviously didn't exist until 20 years ago).

I contrast that with the feeling I get when I have an old tobacco card in my hand. When I look at one of those, I feel like I am looking at history. This is the actual thing that someone had 100 years ago, in the same form that they had it. It doesn't have foil or faux vintage graphics stamped on it. Its real. I like it.

I should note that I don't feel the same about memorabilia cards of contemporary players. They aren't anachronisms with them - this is how some cards of players in this day and age are made and it feels quite natural. It also helps that you don't have the same preservation issues to worry about since they can easily create game used stuff for them.

100 years from now, these cards aren't going to be appreciated as anything but pieces of early 21st century ephemera, regardless of what era the player depicted actually played in. If I want a piece of Ruth or Cobb history I'll spend money on a period card of them from their playing days. Even though they may never have touched the card in person, it is a way closer connection to the time in which they played than a wood chip in a shiny piece of plastic is.

[68Hawk]

Originally Posted by seanofjapan

I hate them.

...............
For me the things are just tacky anachronisms. I don't feel any history when I look at them because the card they are housed in (which makes up the majority of the item) is a modern, glitzy piece of plastic that screams "modern" at you.

Plastic? Screams modern?

[seanofjapan]

Originally Posted by 68Hawk

Plastic? Screams modern?

Sorry, but yeah, that screams "modern" at me. Anachronisms that I can't get around:

1) The shiny glare. Old cardboard doesn't reflect light that way.
2) The SP logo looks distinctly modern. It has a slight art deco feel to it, but that style didn't yet exist during Jackson's playing days.
3) The marbled grey background looks like a kitchen countertop in a contemporary suburban home. Its not a motif I think anyone associated with baseball, or even used, in the dead ball era.
4) The term "Legendary Cuts" is obviously modern hobby-speak, as is "Legendary Debut Bat Cards".
5) The "TM" mark is not something you see on the front of old cards.
6) The White Sox logo is contemporary, not the one used in Jackson's time.
7) Hard to tell form the photo, but I'm guessing the wood chip is in fact behind a plastic window?

And of course you also have the fact that the very idea of shredding bats to put wood chips into cards is a modern concept that nobody did back in Jackson's day.

So yeah, I'm sorry but I don't like that card, even though it does have a very nice photo of Jackson on it.

[68Hawk]

Originally Posted by seanofjapan

Sorry, but yeah, that screams "modern" at me. Anachronisms that I can't get around:

1) The shiny glare. Old cardboard doesn't reflect light that way.
2) The SP logo looks distinctly modern. It has a slight art deco feel to it, but that style didn't yet exist during Jackson's playing days.
3) The marbled grey background looks like a kitchen countertop in a contemporary suburban home. Its not a motif I think anyone associated with baseball, or even used, in the dead ball era.
4) The term "Legendary Cuts" is obviously modern hobby-speak, as is "Legendary Debut Bat Cards".
5) The "TM" mark is not something you see on the front of old cards.
6) The White Sox logo is contemporary, not the one used in Jackson's time.
7) Hard to tell form the photo, but I'm guessing the wood chip is in fact behind a plastic window?

And of course you also have the fact that the very idea of shredding bats to put wood chips into cards is a modern concept that nobody did back in Jackson's day.

So yeah, I'm sorry but I don't like that card, even though it does have a very nice photo of Jackson on it.

OK, you broke it down bit by bit so I guess I understand your thinking, however I'd suggest the aesthetic when viewed as a whole has a throwback vintage look and not at all modern. But that's fine.
Wood slice is NOT behind any plastic, none of the memorabilia cards I own are sleeved behind anything...

I find the thinking interesting on the topic, I guess I've certainly stuck and offered far more than 2 cents worth.
I wonder if the same people thinking desecration and destruction hated and still loathe the 60's action of hot-rodding...taking a perfectly good 34' Ford and cutting down its roofline, messing with fenders, cutting and changing etc?
Similarly the current love affair with resto-modding must be equally challenging to one's need to keep all classic things in their original form?

How about going into a historically period perfect home and ripping out a functioning and as designed kitchen and replacing it with something modern and sleek and chic? Bathroom too, heavenly days. Talk about destruction!!

But lets keep it in our wheelhouse.
Was this an act of abhorent destruction, or merely the need and desire of the owner to own and make appropriate to their desire? Is it ok because the owner performed the act so long ago, it was somehow less distressing and destructive?
Cut down from an advertising sheet:


Or how about this piece.....the auto I promise has not resided in this card since inception. Cut auto's ok even if they destroy the integrity of their original housing? What if there was text immediately before the auto giving context and history to it's penning...?


I'm going to guess most don't feel the same about signatures. How come?
This attitude that the jersey/bat have been destroyed, as if nothing remains, is patently untrue. It exists in miniatures to be sure.

[68Hawk]

And while I own exactly one bat card, as shown above of Shoeless Joe, I also own this (just a store model, nothing exotic):


I own one Soccer memorabilia card of Pele's...


...but also own a genuine game jersey of his from his Cosmos time:


I enjoy ALL my pieces, and can honestly say about equally. I get no more 'authentic' an experience holding the Ruth bat than I do gazing at the Jackson card sitting on the wall across from a 1964 Gold Crown pool table.
Honestly, there's a price and value difference, but these cards can have an incredible artistic and creative vibe if you allow yourself to enjoy them.

And yes folks, I promise never to cut up my stuff and put it in little home made cards.
But there is room in my mind for both to exist and bring enjoyment to many who might only be able to afford the one iteration.

[seanofjapan]

Originally Posted by 68Hawk

OK, you broke it down bit by bit so I guess I understand your thinking, however I'd suggest the aesthetic when viewed as a whole has a throwback vintage look and not at all modern. But that's fine.
Wood slice is NOT behind any plastic, none of the memorabilia cards I own are sleeved behind anything...

Its really a matter of perspective I think. I'm not intending to disparage the cards but rather explain why they aren't for me. I know they are going for a throwback look, but it just doesn't work for me, for the reasons I outlined earlier.

Originally Posted by 68Hawk

I wonder if the same people thinking desecration and destruction hated and still loathe the 60's action of hot-rodding...taking a perfectly good 34' Ford and cutting down its roofline, messing with fenders, cutting and changing etc?

There is a huge difference between the two in terms of value added though.

The cars used by hot rodders would have simply been junked without their intervention.

Game used bats of HOFers on the other hand would not have been junked without Upper Deck or whoever buying them to turn them into cards: they were already considered quite valuable. They would have been preserved without really requiring much in the way of cost or effort to do so.

Also, while hot rodders were altering the original condition of those cars, they were doing something qualitatively that was vastly different from just cutting them up into little pieces. They spent a lot of time, effort and imagination to turn something that society at the time placed no value on into something useful and interesting. Its quite creative what they did.

Buzz sawing a bat into little wood chips and putting them into cards isn't even remotely the same. The bat already had significant value. There isn't much artistic originality involved in cutting them into little squares. I just don't see the same value being added as I do with the hot rods. The only benefit I see is that cutting them up and distributing them like that makes physical contact with the bat (or a small part thereof) more accessible to more people. But I'm not sure that is on balance worth the cost of the destroyed bat (and of course destroying bats to make cards makes contact with an intact bat less accessible over time).

Originally Posted by 68Hawk

Or how about this piece.....the auto I promise has not resided in this card since inception. Cut auto's ok even if they destroy the integrity of their original housing? What if there was text immediately before the auto giving context and history to it's penning...?


I'm going to guess most don't feel the same about signatures. How come?
This attitude that the jersey/bat have been destroyed, as if nothing remains, is patently untrue. It exists in miniatures to be sure.

I'm not a huge fan of the cut signatures either, often times it is obvious that the original signed item (photo, card, etc) was a much more attractive piece than the card they put them into after cutting out the autograph. But the cost/benefit analysis is significantly different than with bats or jerseys. In terms of accessibility, cutting a bat up might turn 1 bat into 500 woodchips (or however many? I have no idea), thus significantly increasing the distribution of that "piece" throughout the hobby. Cutting an autograph doesn't do that though, you start with 1 autographed photo, you end with 1 autographed card. On the other hand though the qualitative level of destruction is usually much less with cut autos - sometimes its just an autograph from a piece of paper where all they've done is trim the edges a bit and nothing of significance was lost (as opposed to an entire bat, jersey, etc being destroyed).

So I don't know. Personally I'd prefer to get a redemption card for an autographed photo, piece of paper, check, whatever of a famous person than I would to get a cut autograph in a card.

[Stampsfan]

No

[Mark17]

Originally Posted by Orioles1954

I agree. At the end of the day, these are inanimate objects that will outlive us all.

And because they are organic (paper, cloth, wood) they will eventually decay. Metal artifacts are a little different, but sports - since the days of the gladiator - don't have a lot of game used metal memorabilia, so I think that's out of scope here.

So the question is, how best to enjoy game used items while they do exist? It's obvious some like to own pieces of these artifacts, while others prefer the concept that they are being preserved somewhere, intact.

I fall back on one of my fundamental principles: If you own something, you own it. So if you want to cut it into pieces, it's your right, and whatever anyone else thinks is not at all relevant.

[Ronnie73]

I don't personally search out these types of cards except for the Topps 2002 Mini's such as Honus Wagner and Ty Cobb. The only reason is because I'm a T206 guy and there are I think 6 reprints with the relics from that set. Otherwise, I'm against destroying certain history but the owner of that history has the ability to do whatever they want with it. As bad as it may seem to many, cutting a jersey into 500 pieces may be the only thing stopping this hobby from dying out. New collectors seem to only care about the relics and autographs. It's also the only thing that's keeping Topps and others still in business. Times have changed. Many of us were completely fine with that bonus stick of gum, sticker, or puzzle piece.