Poll: response to recent PWCC revelations

[pokerplyr80]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

If I didn't sell the drugs to that guy, someone else would have. So what?.

In that situation, much like this one, I would be concerned with the guys producing, growing, transporting, etc. Escobar, El Chapo, than i would be the guys selling 20 bags on the street. But that's different because no one could unknowingly sell an 8 ball. Everyone involved knows they're breaking the law.

But should some of these drugs even be illegal? That's an issue for another discussion.

I'd also be much more concerned with someone becoming a billionaire by convincing doctors across the country to get people hooked on oxy than a doctor who wrote a few too many scripts.

Go to the source if you want to fix the problem.

[Peter_Spaeth]

To me there are three issues here of equal importance. The card doctors. The sellers enabling the card doctors. And the TPGs (hopefully due to incompetence not fraud) slabbing doctored cards. I think all three need to be addressed and I'll take intervention at any and all levels.

[vintagetoppsguy]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

To me there are three issues here of equal importance. The card doctors. The sellers enabling the card doctors. And the TPGs (hopefully due to incompetence not fraud) slabbing doctored cards. I think all three need to be addressed and I'll take intervention at any and all levels.

If all 3 were of equal importance to you, why was PWCC the only one in your poll?

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

If all 3 were of equal importance to you, why was PWCC the only one in your poll?

I am not nearly smart enough to design a poll encompassing all three areas at once, but by all means you should.

[vintagetoppsguy]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

I am not nearly smart enough to design a poll encompassing all three areas at once, but by all means you should.

Would this have been too hard?

I wasn't buying from or consigning to PWCC or submitting to PSA in the first place.
I will no longer buy from/consign to PWCC or submit to PSA.
I will continue to buy from/consign to PWCC and submit to PSA.
I haven't decided.

Let's not be disingenuous.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

Would this have been too hard?

I wasn't buying from or consigning to PWCC or submitting to PSA in the first place.
I will no longer buy from/consign to PWCC or submit to PSA.
I will continue to buy from/consign to PWCC and submit to PSA.
I haven't decided.

Let's not be disingenuous.

Suppose I won't buy from PWCC but will submit to PSA. Or vice versa? Which answer do I choose? David you're being ridiculous. Stop. Start your own poll.

[vintagetoppsguy]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Suppose I won't buy from PWCC but will submit to PSA. Or vice versa? Which answer do I choose? David you're being ridiculous. Stop. Start your own poll.

You're being ridiculous. You say this...

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

To me there are three issues here of equal importance. The card doctors. The sellers enabling the card doctors. And the TPGs (hopefully due to incompetence not fraud) slabbing doctored cards. I think all three need to be addressed and I'll take intervention at any and all levels.

... but then only include PWCC in your poll. If they're all share in the blame equally, why not include them equally? If they're all equal, why would you do business with one and not the other? I don't get that.

But I do get this. Your poll proves Jesse right. It really is a mob mentality.

[Leon]

Taking out the top line of the poll, since they weren't customers to start with, it is close to 50/50 who will buy/undecided vs won't do business again. BTW., I think a LOT of people share Jesse's views but won't voice them due to what has transpired in this thread. Members piling on. (and in their mind rightfully so)....but it is still piling on. Trust me on that.

Peter- you know how I feel from our conversations on the phone.

Here is the one thing I have thought, and like Jesse, could absolutely be wrong.

Lets say Brent KNEW he was selling altered cards from Moser. I think that is a given. What isn't a given, is that he actually thought what he was doing was wrong., By almost all of his statements it seems he was drinking Moser's Kool Aid about what is allowable or not. Still guilty but not quite the same.
If I were his lawyer my first defense exhibit would be everything Brent has said. To me, and I think the law pertaining to sentences (at least), there is a difference between knowingly doing something wrong and doing something wrong but not knowing it was wrong when you did it. I am NOT defending any actions, only stating a point of view. And I am not saying Brent/PWCC is innocent, I am just saying, in my view, there is a reasonable chance, based on what I have seen and my very recent conversations with Brent, that he thought he wasn't doing anything wrong. On the other hand Moser knew what he was doing was wrong ie... Specific Intent. And I think PSA needs to step up their game a whole lot.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Leon

Taking out the top line of the poll, since they weren't customers to start with, it is close to 50/50 who will buy/undecided vs won't do business again. BTW., I think a LOT of people share Jesse's views but won't voice them due to what has transpired in this thread. Members piling on. (and in their mind rightfully so)....but it is still piling on. Trust me on that.

Peter- you know how I feel from our conversations on the phone.

Here is the one thing I have thought, and like Jesse, could absolutely be wrong.

Lets say Brent KNEW he was selling altered cards from Moser. I think that is a given. What isn't a given, is that he actually thought what he was doing was wrong., By almost all of his statements it seems he was drinking Moser's Kool Aid about what is allowable or not. Still guilty but not quite the same.
If I were his lawyer my first defense exhibit would be everything Brent has said. To me, and I think the law, there is a difference between knowingly doing something wrong and doing something wrong but not knowing it was wrong when you did it. I am NOT defending any actions, only stating a point of view. And I am not saying Brent/PWCC is innocent, I am just saying, in my view, there is a reasonable chance, based on what I have seen and my very recent conversations with Brent, that he thought he wasn't doing anything wrong. On the other hand Moser knew what he was doing was wrong. And I think PSA needs to step up there game a whole lot.

You're tying yourself in knots Leon. Gary did not convince him trimming and recoloring and sharpening corners were OK. I promise you.

Agreed on Gary and PSA.

[Republicaninmass]

Originally Posted by Leon

Lets say Brent KNEW he was selling altered cards from Moser. I think that is a given. What isn't a given, is that he actually thought what he was doing was wrong

I don't think that's a defense...


Counselor

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

If all 3 were of equal importance to you, why was PWCC the only one in your poll?

Have you read any of my posts savaging Sloan's response, by the way? If not read them and come back and make the absurd suggestion that I am not just as focused on PSA.

[Exhibitman]

No More PWCC. Life is too short.

[sportscardtheory]

This was from early in the thread, but I just laughed out loud when someone said they needed "video evidence" to believe PWCC was involved in this completely obvious fraud. Hilarious. Try changing that guy's mind on ANYTHING. He's dug in like a tick.

[perezfan]

Originally Posted by sportscardtheory

This was from early in the thread, but I just laughed out loud when someone said they needed "video evidence" to believe PWCC was involved in this completely obvious fraud. Hilarious. Try changing that guy's mind on ANYTHING. He's dug in like a tick.

Yeah, I’m beginning to think there’s nothing more we can do. Of the people polled, over half now say they’ll still buy from PWCC, as opposed to those who’s minds have changed. And that’s within a forum devoted specifically to advanced collectors... must be a far greater percentage when you incorporate collectors who aren’t even aware of net54 or BO.

I suppose no amount of overwhelming evidence will sway them. I was completely unaware of the number of people who are in this just for money. A real eye-opener.

[Dpeck100]

Originally Posted by perezfan

Yeah, I’m beginning to think there’s nothing more we can do. Of the people polled, over half now say they’ll still buy from PWCC, as opposed to those who’s minds have changed. And that’s within a forum devoted specifically to advanced collectors... must be a far greater percentage when you incorporate collectors who aren’t even aware of net54 or BO.

I suppose no amount of overwhelming evidence will sway them. I was completely unaware of the number of people who are in this just for money. A real eye-opener.

It is not about money its about supply.

I just checked my EBAY history and the last purchase I made through PWCC was September 26 and I spent $20.80 before shipping. Their shipping by the way is miles ahead of almost all EBAY participants. These two cards I won well below my max bids.

Prior to that I won a card on July 26th for $90. Guess what there hasn't been one listed since. We are approaching a year.

I could live without all three of these cards but in June they listed a card I really wanted. I am not going to just let someone else win that card I want because the internet thinks I should boycott a seller.

You will notice all that have said they will continue to purchase from them haven't once said those that wouldn't are stupid. The same can't be said for the opposite.

I am betting on human behavior and I believe the supply will continue to attract the bids.