PSA Response from President Steve Sloan

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Promethius88

If you have a recall on a vehicle or basically any other product, don't you typically take it back to the place where you bought it? I mean, I don't see cars lined up at the actual plant looking to get fixed. Might be a stretch, but kind of how I see it.

That's because the dealer is designated by the warranty to take the return. The dealer is a representative of the manufacturer. The PSA guarantee does not say anything about gong to the seller first or designate the seller as an agent.

[Promethius88]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

That's because the dealer is designated by the warranty to take the return. The dealer is a representative of the manufacturer. The PSA guarantee does not say anything about gong to the seller first or designate the seller as an agent.

Yeah, I get that...kind of an apples to oranges thing. While I do agree the liability falls back on PSA, I would attempt to get my money back from the person that sold it to me. This isn't with just in regards to this situation, just my general opinion. "You sold me a piece of crap, you take the time to deal with it.... return my money now". I don't care what the item was, whoever sold it to me should take their time and money to have to return the item.
As noted before, I think this will possibly their stance.
1. Return the item to the person that sold it to you for a refund.
2. That person(PWCC) can try to return in to PSA under the guarantee.
3. They get denied for violating the terms and conditions by submitting knowingly altered items.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Promethius88

Yeah, I get that...kind of an apples to oranges thing. While I do agree the liability falls back on PSA, I would attempt to get my money back from the person that sold it to me. This isn't with just in regards to this situation, just my general opinion. "You sold me a piece of crap, you take the time to deal with it.... return my money now". I don't care what the item was, whoever sold it to me should take their time and money to have to return the item.
As noted before, I think this will possibly their stance.
1. Return the item to the person that sold it to you for a refund.
2. That person(PWCC) can try to return in to PSA under the guarantee.
3. They get denied for violating the terms and conditions by submitting knowingly altered items.

What if you now discover a card on the list you bought 5 years ago? Not fair to go back to the seller IMO. Sellers who are innocent are entitled to repose at some point, I would think much sooner than that. It's PSA's eff-up if something is wrong, not the seller, IMO, unless the seller was complicit.

[Bored5000]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

What if you now discover a card on the list you bought 5 years ago? Not fair to go back to the seller IMO. Sellers who are innocent are entitled to repose at some point, I would think much sooner than that. It's PSA's eff-up if something is wrong, not the seller, IMO, unless the seller was complicit.

That is pretty much the position I am in. I have a Moser card that I purchased through PWCC over two years ago.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Bored5000

That is pretty much the position I am in. I have a Moser card that I purchased through PWCC over two years ago.

Start with PWCC and let us know what happens, I guess.

[Peter_Spaeth]

It's up to you the collector to figure out if you have problem cards. We aren't going to help.

And if you do, don't bother us, call the seller.

If the seller is "unknown," we'll help you.

By the way, the incredible array of altered cards you're seeing on message boards -- don't worry, PSA is well-versed in detecting fraud.

[Bored5000]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Start with PWCC and let us know what happens, I guess.

Here is a copy of the message I sent to PWCC. I have pretty much zero optimism that there will be any understanding or accommodation from PWCC, but I guess we will see.

"Hello,

I purchased a 1900 Cope's Golfers Tom Morris card from PWCC for $757.76 plus $8 shipping.on May 23, 2017. With what has come to light in recent weeks, I now believe the card was consigned by Gary Moser and was previously in a PSA 2 holder before being altered/soaked. Had I known the card came from Moser and was likely tampered with, I never would have bid on the card.

I am reaching out to you to see what PWCC plans to do for customers who purchased Moser cards that were altered and now reside in higher-graded PSA holders?

Would you kindly advise me of the company's position for those customers who purchased Moser cards from you?

Sincerely,
Eddie Smith"

[swarmee]

Well, the guys on the PSA message board are lining up to "kiss the ring" and show PSA how loyal they are so they won't get banned.

If they think that we should add "conserved" cards into the regular pool of PSA cards, I would recommend PSA blow up the Sacred Cow Set Registry and start from scratch. All cards need to go through review to be added back to a set registry if they change the grading standards! But again, they'd have to OPENLY DECLARE THAT THEY CANNOT DETECT ALTERATIONS.

No reason to allow conserved cards 30 years after Set Registry implementation when people have been paying thousands/hundreds of thousands over the cost of ALTERED cards to have the best graded sets. It will cause a water-down effect that will hurt the major investors in cards.

Oh, but it happened in comic books. It must be fine. Again, if PSA can tell the difference, and they're charging up to $5,000 per card because they CLAIM THEY CAN, why should anyone accept them punting on determining the quality of a card and slabbing alterations as unaltered?

[CuriousGeorge]

I think rather than taking $10 to crossover cards SGC should be offering to independently look at any cards and give their professional opinion as to whether the card has been altered. If it hasn’t they can crossover and if it has then the owner can go to PSA for recourse.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by CuriousGeorge

I think rather than taking $10 to crossover cards SGC should be offering to independently look at any cards and give their professional opinion as to whether the card has been altered. If it hasn’t they can crossover and if it has then the owner can go to PSA for recourse.

Isn't an authenticity review implicit here?

[CuriousGeorge]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Isn't an authenticity review implicit here?

You would think it is but I know I would pay a nice sum to have someone take a professional and unbiased look at my overpriced cardboard without necessarily being forced to cross them over.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by CuriousGeorge

You would think it is but I know I would pay a nice sum to have someone take a professional and unbiased look at my overpriced cardboard without necessarily being forced to cross them over.

Ah got it. Well, it's a good idea, I would convey it to SGC. One issue though is any in slab review is limited in its ability to see the edges. In fact I often question how the TPGs really can do cross-overs properly with the cards in slabs.

[CuriousGeorge]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Ah got it. Well, it's a good idea, I would convey it to SGC. One issue though is any in slab review is limited in its ability to see the edges. In fact I often question how the TPGs really can do cross-overs properly with the cards in slabs.

I think after we see what has gone on here they use the word “properly” very loosely.

[perezfan]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Ah got it. Well, it's a good idea, I would convey it to SGC. One issue though is any in slab review is limited in its ability to see the edges. In fact I often question how the TPGs really can do cross-overs properly with the cards in slabs.

Excellent point... that "side view" is really obscured by the slab.

[tribefan]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Isn't an authenticity review implicit here?

Upcharges ONLY apply if the card "crosses" to the designated minimum grade or higher (we will always call for approval for any upcharge necessary).


sounds like $10 gets you a review, and if it meets your minimum grade or higher for crossover, you pay a little more? The regular grading fee?

[WhenItWasAHobby]

I've been on a hiatus of sorts for the past four years or so, but just happened to look at the message board for old time sake and noticed the proliferation of threads regarding altered PSA cards. Needless to say, it should have not come as a surprise to me. Why it now seems like a scandal is perplexing.

I thought the issue of a substantial amount of altered cards being systematically slabbed and graded by PSA is old news going back at least 10 years. Was it just skepticism in the past and now it's an irrefutable crisis? What am I missing?

As for PSA's response regarding altered cards, based on my past experience, one should be cynical regarding PSA's disturbing history of dealing with the problem.

[sportscardtheory]

Originally Posted by WhenItWasAHobby

I've been on a hiatus of sorts for the past four years or so, but just happened to look at the message board for old time sake and noticed the proliferation of threads regarding altered PSA cards. Needless to say, it should have not come as a surprise to me. Why it now seems like a scandal is perplexing.

I thought the issue of a substantial amount of altered cards being systematically slabbed and graded by PSA is old news going back at least 10 years. Was it just skepticism in the past and now it's an irrefutable crisis? What am I missing?

As for PSA's response regarding altered cards, based on my past experience, one should be cynical regarding PSA's disturbing history of dealing with the problem.

Who cares. It's happening now. The past does not define the present.

[WhenItWasAHobby]

Originally Posted by sportscardtheory

Who cares. It's happening now. The past does not define the present.

It should have been dealt with twelve years ago when I approached PSA Customer Service about the problem and other times since and consequently more than likely tens of thousands of altered cards have been sold to unsuspecting collectors and the cards will exist longer than the collectors and just be repeatedly sold and bought with no knowledge of the alterations.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by WhenItWasAHobby

I've been on a hiatus of sorts for the past four years or so, but just happened to look at the message board for old time sake and noticed the proliferation of threads regarding altered PSA cards. Needless to say, it should have not come as a surprise to me. Why it now seems like a scandal is perplexing.

I thought the issue of a substantial amount of altered cards being systematically slabbed and graded by PSA is old news going back at least 10 years. Was it just skepticism in the past and now it's an irrefutable crisis? What am I missing?

As for PSA's response regarding altered cards, based on my past experience, one should be cynical regarding PSA's disturbing history of dealing with the problem.

Holy sheet is that really you? How are you my friend?

[WhenItWasAHobby]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Holy sheet is that really you? How are you my friend?

No major complaints here Peter. Just enjoying life outside of baseball cards.

I'm glad to see you're still here fighting for truth, justice and the American way.

[barrysloate]

Originally Posted by WhenItWasAHobby

I've been on a hiatus of sorts for the past four years or so, but just happened to look at the message board for old time sake and noticed the proliferation of threads regarding altered PSA cards. Needless to say, it should have not come as a surprise to me. Why it now seems like a scandal is perplexing.

I thought the issue of a substantial amount of altered cards being systematically slabbed and graded by PSA is old news going back at least 10 years. Was it just skepticism in the past and now it's an irrefutable crisis? What am I missing?

As for PSA's response regarding altered cards, based on my past experience, one should be cynical regarding PSA's disturbing history of dealing with the problem.

Hi Dan,
Welcome back to the board. A lot of us knew 10-15 years ago that altered cards were getting slabbed, and at an alarming rate. I know that when I told collectors about it, they thought it was just some harebrained idea, so most of us didn't publicize it. Now it's out in the open, which is a good thing. Maybe it will finally be properly addressed (not guaranteed).

[WhenItWasAHobby]

Originally Posted by barrysloate

Hi Dan,
Welcome back to the board. A lot of us knew 10-15 years ago that altered cards were getting slabbed, and at an alarming rate. I know that when I told collectors about it, they thought it was just some harebrained idea, so most of us didn't publicize it. Now it's out in the open, which is a good thing. Maybe it will finally be properly addressed (not guaranteed).

Hi Barry,

Nice to hear from you.

Your experience back then was the same as mine. My observation over several years with piles of evidence to prove it was that collectors who initially bought graded cards as a safeguard to prevent buying altered cards were later well aware of the prolific problem of doctored cards in slabs yet still continued to buy the graded cards anyway. It was mind boggling, but I've since learned that this psychological disorder is called cognitive dissonance.

[ullmandds]

Originally Posted by CuriousGeorge

I think rather than taking $10 to crossover cards SGC should be offering to independently look at any cards and give their professional opinion as to whether the card has been altered. If it hasn’t they can crossover and if it has then the owner can go to PSA for recourse.

You cant properly examine a card in a slab.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by ullmandds

You cant properly examine a card in a slab.

Of course not but so what. A partial second opinion is better than none here.