Its not just moser/pwcc...more trimmers exposed

vintagetoppsguy · #1 05-31-2019, 10:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by T206Collector

I think he�s adding a light gloss to the cards after he recolors, so it doesn�t look like the surface is being touched. He gets �under� the patina that way.

That makes perfect sense, but it should still fail a blacklight test. Why aren't these high dollar cards being examined under a blacklight? Is an extra 30 seconds in the review process really that much extra effort, especially on high dollar cards?

Peter_Spaeth · #2 05-31-2019, 10:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

That makes perfect sense, but it should still fail a blacklight test. Why aren't these high dollar cards being examined under a blacklight? Is an extra 30 seconds in the review process really that much extra effort, especially on high dollar cards?

I am told he may be using a type of paint or ink hat doesn't show up?

Bigdaddy · #3 05-31-2019, 10:54 AM

For a computer based vision system with machine learning capability, the detection of alterations to cards, whether trimmed edges, recoloring or other alterations, should be easy to detect.

This is a grad student project to put together the system and to 'teach' it with known examples of altered and unaltered cards. You could also give the system rules for grading the cards. No human operator needed (or desired).

vintagetoppsguy · #4 05-31-2019, 10:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bigdaddy

No human operator needed (or desired).

Then who would the card doctors pay the kickbacks to?

Peter_Spaeth · #5 05-31-2019, 11:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

Then who would the card doctors pay the kickbacks to?

Someone still has to feed the cards into the machine.

drcy · #6 05-31-2019, 11:41 AM

Not the same things, but they do use AI to help authenticate paintings. The paintings study the brushstrokes to see how they line up with the brushstrokes of known original paintings of the painters. Has even worked on Jackson Pollock paintings.

I very highly doubt humans will ever be removed, or should be removed, from grading, but new technology and science can certainly be used.

Batpig · #7 05-31-2019, 11:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bigdaddy

For a computer based vision system with machine learning capability, the detection of alterations to cards, whether trimmed edges, recoloring or other alterations, should be easy to detect.

This is a grad student project to put together the system and to 'teach' it with known examples of altered and unaltered cards. You could also give the system rules for grading the cards. No human operator needed (or desired).

I think you�re oversimplifying it. The reason it hasn�t already been done is it is incredibly difficult and complex.

chalupacollects · #8 05-31-2019, 07:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bigdaddy

For a computer based vision system with machine learning capability, the detection of alterations to cards, whether trimmed edges, recoloring or other alterations, should be easy to detect.

This is a grad student project to put together the system and to 'teach' it with known examples of altered and unaltered cards. You could also give the system rules for grading the cards. No human operator needed (or desired).

No not a grad school project. Several ex Microsoft engineers have buddied up with some patent lawyers out of California and already have a pattern on the technology... There are several threads here (more comprehensive - has links to the patent) and also on Blowout... not sure how to search them out but someone will see this and oblige...

Just not sure what they are waiting for to launch??? Maybe an angel investor or VC firm??? I'm sure they can get some seed money off this board alone!

Peter_Spaeth · #9 05-31-2019, 09:02 PM

Gee whiz.
https://www.blowoutforums.com/showpo...postcount=2402

Peter_Spaeth · #10 05-31-2019, 09:03 PM

Yowza.

https://www.blowoutforums.com/showpo...postcount=2401

T206Collector · #11 05-31-2019, 09:28 PM

https://www.blowoutforums.com/showpo...postcount=2388

T206Collector · #12 05-31-2019, 11:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

That makes perfect sense, but it should still fail a blacklight test. Why aren't these high dollar cards being examined under a blacklight? Is an extra 30 seconds in the review process really that much extra effort, especially on high dollar cards?

You�re absolutely right:

https://sabrbaseballcards.blog/2017/...uthentication/

drcy · #13 05-31-2019, 11:43 AM

There are current tools, beyond just blacklight, that would identify all added material. They are currently used with art and artifacts.

vintagetoppsguy · #14 05-31-2019, 12:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by drcy

There are current tools, beyond just blacklight, that would identify all added material. They are currently used with art and artifacts.

Thanks! You don't have to explain how the tools work (I probably wouldn't understand anyway

), but how long would it take to use these tools to examine a card? Just wanting to know how much extra time would be involved in the grading process?

drcy · #15 05-31-2019, 06:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

Thanks! You don't have to explain how the tools work (I probably wouldn't understand anyway

), but how long would it take to use these tools to examine a card? Just wanting to know how much extra time would be involved in the grading process?

There are handheld "point and shoot" spectrometers, including one pictured in the below article. Blacklights are a form of spectroscopy, but there are highly advanced versions (using ir, gamma rays and x-rays) that include handheld devices.

SPECTROSCOPY IN ART AND ARTIFACTS AUTHENTICATION

perezfan · #16 05-31-2019, 07:08 PM

The bogus PSA-approved cards just keep coming on BO.... Cobb, Marquard and Mantle now... with no apparent end in sight.

If FBI or Law Enforcement doesn't have enough to intervene with this plethora of indisputable evidence, then there's a huge double-standard. This is feeling way beyond what Mastro, Allen and Rogers did.

PWCC/PSA are to cards as Coach's Corner/Christopher Morales are to autographs. Actually they are worse, as the corrupt money pouring in is far greater.

Fuddjcal · #17 06-01-2019, 12:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by perezfan

The bogus PSA-approved cards just keep coming on BO.... Cobb, Marquard and Mantle now... with no apparent end in sight.

If FBI or Law Enforcement doesn't have enough to intervene with this plethora of indisputable evidence, then there's a huge double-standard. This is feeling way beyond what Mastro, Allen and Rogers did.

PWCC/PSA are to cards as Coach's Corner/Christopher Morales are to autographs. Actually they are worse, as the corrupt money pouring in is far greater.

Very good analogy

Bram99 · #18 06-01-2019, 12:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by perezfan

The bogus PSA-approved cards just keep coming on BO.... Cobb, Marquard and Mantle now... with no apparent end in sight.

If FBI or Law Enforcement doesn't have enough to intervene with this plethora of indisputable evidence, then there's a huge double-standard. This is feeling way beyond what Mastro, Allen and Rogers did.

PWCC/PSA are to cards as Coach's Corner/Christopher Morales are to autographs. Actually they are worse, as the corrupt money pouring in is far greater.

Or what Charles Ponzi is to schemes

Thromdog · #19 05-31-2019, 12:01 PM

Here’s a Cy Young with some work done.....bought in fall 2017 at BST as a PSA 2 and then sold by PWCC as a PSA 3.

There’s at least one other from that auction that was altered and sold by PWCC also.

https://bst-auctions.com/1909_1911_T...A-LOT2936.aspx

joshuanip · #20 05-31-2019, 04:16 PM

Not relevant to post.

Arazi4442 · #21 05-31-2019, 04:37 PM

Thoughts on this "asset"?

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Steph-Curry...IAAOSw91Jc8Kxi

Seems like a trim would be tough to detect!

joshuanip · #22 05-31-2019, 04:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arazi4442

Thoughts on this "asset"?

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Steph-Curry...IAAOSw91Jc8Kxi

Seems like a trim would be tough to detect!

Its ok, he has a 30 day return policy. If you dont like it you can return it (but he may ban you).

CMIZ5290 · #23 05-31-2019, 05:20 PM

The hits keep on coming with this guy, but unfortunately, he is going to win out and keep laughing all the way to the bank....

vintagetoppsguy · #24 05-31-2019, 05:24 PM

The guys at BO have done an amazing job in their detective work. The before and after pics are irrefutable evidence. Good thing previous auction sales and scans are recorded.

But I wonder how many doctored cards are out there residing in PSA slabs that will never be known? Cards where there are no before scans available? Cards that Moser purchased at a shop, show or other private sale for doctoring? I guess we'll truly never know.

ullmandds · #25 05-31-2019, 05:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by joshuanip

Its only a 200M market cap, but explain why CLCT is near 52 week highs in this market dump..... Either the news hasn't disseminated or this will pass.

i think the stock is seen as a good stock when the markets bad...people may gravitate towards collectibles as investments...like whats happening right now...so the stock is high...because most stockpickers/investors don't know whats happening with psa right now...it hasn't made any major news outlets...might be a good one to short!!!

joshuanip · #26 05-31-2019, 05:25 PM

Not relevant to post.

Peter_Spaeth · #27 05-31-2019, 06:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ullmandds

i think the stock is seen as a good stock when the markets bad...people may gravitate towards collectibles as investments...like whats happening right now...so the stock is high...because most stockpickers/investors don't know whats happening with psa right now...it hasn't made any major news outlets...might be a good one to short!!!

Dave Peck gave some very good insight into the perils of shorting a stock like this not long ago.

joshuanip · #28 05-31-2019, 06:26 PM

Not relevant to post.

steve B · #29 05-31-2019, 12:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

That makes perfect sense, but it should still fail a blacklight test. Why aren't these high dollar cards being examined under a blacklight? Is an extra 30 seconds in the review process really that much extra effort, especially on high dollar cards?

If there's some glosscoat (Or matte clear ) It may block UV. Similarly, not every modern paint/ink will react to UV, so the blacklight won't help as much as it's believed to.

But that's also no reason to not use one. as they can expose a whole laundry list of sins.

perezfan · #30 05-31-2019, 12:18 PM

Well, instead of a blacklight, it appears PSA used a blindfold when examining that Cy Young card.

I wonder if even 1% of these bad cards in PSA Slabs have yet been exposed?

Scott L. · #31 05-31-2019, 12:18 PM

Return a card to PWCC and now your banned.

https://forums.collectors.com/discus...-return#latest

perezfan · #32 05-31-2019, 12:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Scott L.

Return a card to PWCC and now your banned.

https://forums.collectors.com/discus...-return#latest

Well, by banning him, PWCC did him a gigantic favor. Gee, PSA overlooked an obvious wrinkle.... shocker!

Scott L. · #33 05-31-2019, 12:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by perezfan

Well, by banning him, PWCC did him a gigantic favor. Gee, PSA overlooked an obvious wrinkle.... shocker!

Totally agree! Huge favor.

ullmandds · #34 05-31-2019, 12:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Scott L.

Return a card to PWCC and now your banned.

https://forums.collectors.com/discus...-return#latest

I-N-S-A-N-e!!

Like the child in the neighborhood if you don’t play by their rules they don’t play! Pathetic!

swarmee · #35 05-31-2019, 12:42 PM

To write a glowing textual review and not mention the quasi-refractor line going through the entire card is definitely cause for return.

Scott L. · #36 05-31-2019, 12:50 PM

That "line" is so noticeable once you see. I imagine there might be a line out the door of folks looking to return cards and Brent & Betsty are probably on tilt with no one to blame but themselves.

Republicaninmass · #37 05-31-2019, 01:09 PM

You can fool some of the people some of the time..

MULLINS5 · #38 06-01-2019, 08:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Scott L.

Return a card to PWCC and now your banned.

https://forums.collectors.com/discus...-return#latest

It is not in PWCC's best interest to deal with people who inspect their purchases.

Peter_Spaeth · #39 06-01-2019, 08:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MULLINS5

It is not in PWCC's best interest to deal with people who inspect their purchases.

I wonder how their investment advice thing is going.

bnorth · #40 06-01-2019, 09:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

I wonder how their investment advice thing is going.

Probably pretty good. This is on a few baseball card forums but what percentage of collectors are on forums or even know this is happening or even care.

I have friends from the 90's that are still very active in the hobby and had no idea that the Mastro thing happened.

vintagebaseballcardguy · #41 06-01-2019, 10:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bnorth

Probably pretty good. This is on a few baseball card forums but what percentage of collectors are on forums or even know this is happening or even care.

I have friends from the 90's that are still very active in the hobby and had no idea that the Mastro thing happened.

^^^This^^^ I have a couple of friends who have absolutely zero knowledge of Net54, Blowout, Mastro, etc. When I see them and we discuss cards, I have brought all of this up. They look at me like I am exaggerating or speaking a foreign language. I am afraid most collectors are just like them...I was the same way before I found Net54 a few years ago...just quietly collecting cards and enjoying their collections without a care in the world.

Sent from my SM-G960U using Tapatalk

frankbmd · #42 06-01-2019, 09:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

I wonder how their investment advice thing is going.

I would say it's hanging on by a thread.

Peter_Spaeth · #43 06-01-2019, 09:16 AM

How many times do you think he has advised people to buy cards out of his auctions he knew were altered?

Paul S · #44 06-01-2019, 10:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

I wonder how their investment advice thing is going.

Canopy Growth Corp. Out of U.S. juristdiction

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