Conservation vs restoration defined by other genres of collectibles

[calvindog]

Mark, you better finish your Mastro work and make some time for PWCC!

[Republicaninmass]

How about Disclosure vs. Concealment as defined by a court of law? The evidence is just sickening

[Goudey77]

I know...beating a dead horse these past few days. But I think it’s good we talk amongst our community about these definitions. But can we do it constructively?

The way I see it our hobby is in a vulnerable spot, growing pains of sorts, in a phase where these restored cards are going undetected by TPG’s and being sold to the community.

I’m a longtime comic book collector as well. I see similar parallels happening here that something the comic book industry went through years ago. Now with CGC recognizing conservation and restoration it’s openly discussed with clear definitions.

If TPG’s like SGC and PSA someday decide to do what CGC did then we’ll all look back at this time as a game changer in regards to this subject.

What’s happening here is that there are now attempts to “evolve” the sports card hobby to similar collectible genres. Could this mean conservation and restoration is legitimately recognized by the TPG. Grading such cards under a different label?

I remembered seeing this video and think it would be helpful to those who want to actually invest some time into the subject of conservation and restoration in collectibles.
Guests appear to be from CGC and much more knowledgeable on the subject than anyone who has publicly spoken about this on behalf of the sports card hobby.
It’s a long interview but touched on very specific points.

For those who have been most vocal about this topic I’ll tap you on the shoulder and ask that you watch this interview.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=0H5j0mQYpy8

I know the ethical question these days is about knowingly selling altered cards. But what happens if SGC or PSA follows every other collectibles industry who has clearly defined restoration? Grades under a “restored” flip..Will that satisfy the collectors here and put the subject to rest?

[drcy]

I know the ethical question these days is about knowingly selling altered cards. But what happens if SGC or PSA follows every other collectibles industry who has clearly defined restoration? Grades under a “restored” flip..Will that satisfy the collectors here and put the subject to rest?

Besides using the argument "Since restored cards are worth less than unaltered cards, no one would try to sneak a restored past the grader," explain how that would that put the subject to rest?

Upon second thought, nevermind.

[Goudey77]

DRCY, I’ll get back to you when I’m back from vacation.
I couldn’t help myself by reposting the original point I had.

Short answer you have clear definitions and no grey area like we have now. Perhaps TPG’s will put more focus on being an expert of conservation and restoration. Per CgC graders in the video I posted they seem to have it figured out.

No grey area then we can rest knowing a TPG finally really addressed and
Acknowledged this topic in the new modern era.

[Kenny Cole]

Originally Posted by Goudey77

DRCY, I’ll get back to you when I’m back from vacation.
I couldn’t help myself by reposting the original point I had.

Short answer you have clear definitions and no grey area like we have now. Perhaps TPG’s will put more focus on being an expert of conservation and restoration. Per CgC graders in the video I posted they seem to have it figured out.

No grey area then we can rest knowing a TPG finally really addressed and
Acknowledged this topic in the new modern era.

I have now seen enough to personally convince me that fraud is being committed on a daily, if not hourly, basis. So I'm out. I've been out for a couple of weeks. Missed some cards high on my want list, but I didn't want them at that price and "condition," whatever that condition actually was. When enough other people decide to do the same thing, maybe it will have an impact. Until then, it won't. I get that stuff still trumps all for most.

If the feds come in, it will speed up the exodus. Until then, not so much. I get that. But, and let me stress this, PWCC is doing NOTHING GOOD for the hobby by committing what IMO is rampant fraud and then trying to justify it by "redefining" what fraud is. I'm a lawyer. I do fraud cases. I know how fraud is legally defined. That new PWCC "definition" doesn't work for me.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Kenny Cole

I have now seen enough to personally convince me that fraud is being committed on a daily, if not hourly, basis. So I'm out. I've been out for a couple of weeks. Missed some cards high on my want list, but I didn't want them at that price and "condition," whatever that condition actually was. When enough other people decide to do the same thing, maybe it will have an impact. Until then, it won't. I get that stuff still trumps all for most.

If the feds come in, it will speed up the exodus. Until then, not so much. I get that. But, and let me stress this, PWCC is doing NOTHING GOOD for the hobby by committing what IMO is rampant fraud and then trying to justify it by "redefining" what fraud is. I'm a lawyer. I do fraud cases. I know how fraud is legally defined. That new PWCC "definition" doesn't work for me.

According to their ad, they've been "leading the trading card marketplace since 1998." One hopes that these current issues don't go back that far, or I can only imagine the number of affected cards out there. Then again, I know for a fact that the relationship that seems most concerning on the vintage side is a very long term one.

We also need to bear in mind that there are many card doctors out there, although likely they have left less of a paper trail.

[CobbSpikedMe]

Originally Posted by Goudey77

I know the ethical question these days is about knowingly selling altered cards. But what happens if SGC or PSA follows every other collectibles industry who has clearly defined restoration? Grades under a “restored” flip..Will that satisfy the collectors here and put the subject to rest?

I don't think the TPGs grading under a "restored" flip is the subject that is bothering so many here. The fact that PWCC is selling an absurd number of altered cards in regular slabs with number grades is the problem. And the fact that they are working with known card doctors to do so. So the TPG using a "restored" flip won't put anything to rest.

[Goudey77]

Originally Posted by CobbSpikedMe

I don't think the TPGs grading under a "restored" flip is the subject that is bothering so many here. The fact that PWCC is selling an absurd number of altered cards in regular slabs with number grades is the problem. And the fact that they are working with known card doctors to do so. So the TPG using a "restored" flip won't put anything to rest.

While I agree with you. Wouldn’t it be comforting to know a TPG can work similarly to CGC? Be vocal subject matter experts. Give that video I linked a chance. If PSA came out with a open chat discussing their stance in detail it would be kind of a big deal.

[swarmee]

Martin, until all three grading companies tell the people they are not wearing any clothes, aka incapable of detecting alterations, your point is useless.

[drcy]

Besides, with all the CGC mentions, I am unaware that comics don't have the same exact problems as trading cards

[Kenny Cole]

Wow. OK. i'm not sure that what school you went to makes a significant difference in this discussion. There are lawyers who went to one of the prestige schools whose ass I kick regularly. Others, not so much. It isn't about the school, its about the person. Particularly after you graduate and most people don't care where you went. I am having that very discussion with my youngest child right now.

I do not disagree that the TPGers have a significant degree of culpability in this debacle, whether due to ineptitude, intent, or whatever the reason may be. Yes, they made a promise that pretty clearly was sometimes not capable of being even close to fulfilled. To say the least, that is problematic.

But how does that give the fraudsters a pass? If you trim a card and submit it for a grade because you are pretty sure that your fraud is so advanced that the TPGers can't detect it, how and why is that OK? You still knowingly committed fraud. Period. The fact that the TPGers can't detect your fraud doesn't mean that you didn't commit it. Caveat emptor doesn't work so well anymore, nor should it when a huge percentage of cards are being sold over the internet based on scans. You can be an apologist for PSAA until you are blue in the face, but the evidence seems to be mounting (to say the least) that it knew what was going on, was complicit, and did its best to profit from it. In what universe is that OK?

[Fuddjcal]

Originally Posted by Goudey77

I know...beating a dead horse these past few days. But I think it’s good we talk amongst our community about these definitions. But can we do it constructively?

The way I see it our hobby is in a vulnerable spot, growing pains of sorts, in a phase where these restored cards are going undetected by TPG’s and being sold to the community.

I’m a longtime comic book collector as well. I see similar parallels happening here that something the comic book industry went through years ago. Now with CGC recognizing conservation and restoration it’s openly discussed with clear definitions.

If TPG’s like SGC and PSA someday decide to do what CGC did then we’ll all look back at this time as a game changer in regards to this subject.

What’s happening here is that there are now attempts to “evolve” the sports card hobby to similar collectible genres. Could this mean conservation and restoration is legitimately recognized by the TPG. Grading such cards under a different label?

I remembered seeing this video and think it would be helpful to those who want to actually invest some time into the subject of conservation and restoration in collectibles.
Guests appear to be from CGC and much more knowledgeable on the subject than anyone who has publicly spoken about this on behalf of the sports card hobby.
It’s a long interview but touched on very specific points.

For those who have been most vocal about this topic I’ll tap you on the shoulder and ask that you watch this interview.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=0H5j0mQYpy8

I know the ethical question these days is about knowingly selling altered cards. But what happens if SGC or PSA follows every other collectibles industry who has clearly defined restoration? Grades under a “restored” flip..Will that satisfy the collectors here and put the subject to rest?

Beating a dead horse? You must have been kicked in the head by a mule as a small child. Other people are saying it too, so you may what to check into it.

[Goudey77]

Originally Posted by Fuddjcal

Beating a dead horse? You must have been kicked in the head by a mule as a small child. Other people are saying it too, so you may what to check into it.

I have no idea what you are saying Chuck. I tend to skip over your comments as I find them the least helpful and rudimentary.
I attended an Ivy League school and so did my siblings. There’s no mule kicking incidents in our family.

[Republicaninmass]

Awful lot of cards BOUGHT by Moser with feedback left

"We know very well who Gary Moser is"


One the top buyers, conserver, and consignors that deals solely with PWCC

[swarmee]

Martin, quit while you're behind.

[Goudey77]

Originally Posted by swarmee

Martin, quit while you're behind.

I think my original message is starting to gain some traction based on the other threads. So I may quit while...

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by Goudey77

I have no idea what you are saying Chuck. I tend to skip over your comments as I find them the least helpful and rudimentary.
I attended an Ivy League school and so did my siblings. There’s no mule kicking incidents in our family.

I think Chuck is saying: Your thinking is completely the opposite of every one else.

I think he was also offering a explanation on why you think that way. This is just a wild guess.

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

And to take a step back, I also find it difficult to believe that you think so little of us collectors (or consumers as you put it), that we lack the agency to help set where the red line is in our own hobby. These “gatekeeper” companies exist at our pleasure, as I hope they’re all soon finding out. In fact, I thought you were calling on everyone to have an opinion and make it known so we can achieve a new, better understanding. we have no agency plain and simple. But people are quick to criticize when vocal companies like PWCC want to stir the pot and introduce change and discussion
__________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ ________

Thank God for companies that are looking out for us like PWCC...

You really don't see why that is what people focus on in your posts?

We all agree to one degree or another that there is a TPG problem. But you think the solution is to trust the company that appears to be actively ripping people off. A few of us beg to differ. Saying "The TPG's are bad." Doesn't excuse intentional fraudulent activity.

[RiceBondsMntna2Young]

@Goudey77: “we have no agency plain and simple“

That’s so depressingly cynical if you believe that. It’s also factually wrong: have a look at corndog, 312, and superdan at BO. Three dudes sitting in their boxers living in their mom’s basement (metaphorically, probably) are poised to topple one, and if you have your way, maybe an additional two or three industry titans, in both the criminal and civil spheres.

[Republicaninmass]

Originally Posted by Goudey77

I attended an Ivy League school and so did my siblings. There’s no mule kicking incidents in our family.

So did Trump and George Dubya...and Fred Dorfman


Hoover: Kent is a legacy, Otter. His brother was a ’59, Fred Dorfman.
Flounder: He said legacies usually get asked to pledge automatically.
Otter: Oh, well, usually. Unless the pledge in question turns out to be a real closet-case.
Otter, Boon: Like Fred.

[frankbmd]

Originally Posted by Goudey77

I have no idea what you are saying Chuck. I tend to skip over your comments as I find them the least helpful and rudimentary.
I attended an Ivy League school and so did my siblings. There’s no mule kicking incidents in our family.

I just had to check. We weren’t classmates.

And I’ve never used my educational pedigree as a means of intimidation.