Brent/PWCC interview on recent controversies

[Fuddjcal]

I wonder if Dr Cards is a client of Brent Mastro?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IYVdD6WTYYU

not that it bothers me. it just shows him waxing the card, not trimming.

[Republicaninmass]

Originally Posted by bobbyw8469

Agreed. And who was foolish enough to do it on modern cards that are already numbered from the manufacturer?? While these guys are talented and have been making money hand over fist for quite some time, they sure blew it on that minor (but huge) detail.

Greed isnt always good

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by bobbyw8469

Agreed. And who was foolish enough to do it on modern cards that are already numbered from the manufacturer?? While these guys are talented and have been making money hand over fist for quite some time, they sure blew it on that minor (but huge) detail.

Big money in those cards, for whatever reason they are what the modern dudes crave.

[MULLINS5]

I was just about to pull the trigger on a very expensive PSA hockey card, but I really have no choice but to hold off for awhile after reading what has been coming out. I'm just now hearing this and getting caught up to speed.

Brent says PWCC is not a grading company - but they are. "High-End" "Exceptional" etc. They say they can offer these grades based on their experience in handling more trading cards than anyone else in the industry. So, why can't they detect alterations?

They couldn't just list a graded card and give a small description and let the pictures sell the card. They used the most ridiculous hyperbole I've ever read for trading cards and developed a grading system for them.

Not surprised it's come to this. Won't be surprised if it comes out someone at PWCC was aware of the scamming.

[groundskeeper]

Originally Posted by MULLINS5

I was just about to pull the trigger on a very expensive PSA hockey card, but I really have no choice but to hold off for awhile after reading what has been coming out. I'm just now hearing this and getting caught up to speed.

Brent says PWCC is not a grading company - but they are. "High-End" "Exceptional" etc. They say they can offer these grades based on their experience in handling more trading cards than anyone else in the industry. So, why can't they detect alterations?

They couldn't just list a graded card and give a small description and let the pictures sell the card. They used the most ridiculous hyperbole I've ever read for trading cards and developed a grading system for them.

Not surprised it's come to this. Won't be surprised if it comes out someone at PWCC was aware of the scamming.

Yeah, but no one is buying anything based on what they say in their description. It's PSA that matters. If THEY are doing bad stuff, that's a much bigger and much more improtant scandal than PWCC saying something has great eye appeal or whatever meaningless stuff they put. Now, if they KNOW they are posting altered cards, that's a scandal, too-- and I think people should be clear about it when they accuse them of that.

I don't like PWCC auctions. I've posted before they don't make sense to me and I think it's the card owner buying his own card to inflate prices in many cases (I documented that in a post). But for the <$1000 cards, sometimes they have decent stuff.

[peterose4hof]

Originally Posted by Republicaninmass

Greed isnt always good

Says who?

[SMPEP]

I read all these threads on PWCC and no one ever mentions the ultimate solution - Don't pay higher prices for higher graded cards.

If the buyer's for high end cards go away, the card doctors go away - because they can't make money. Problem solved.

But no one on this board wants to hear that solution - because they're all sitting on high end, graded cards, and don't want to lose their "asset value."

Fortunately for me, my budget never allowed for buying higher end cards, so I have nothing to lose (or gain) from my collection!

[bobbyw8469]

Originally Posted by SMPEP

I read all these threads on PWCC and no one ever mentions the ultimate solution - Don't pay higher prices for higher graded cards.

If the buyer's for high end cards go away, the card doctors go away - because they can't make money. Problem solved.

But no one on this board wants to hear that solution - because they're all sitting on high end, graded cards, and don't want to lose their "asset value."

Fortunately for me, my budget never allowed for buying higher end cards, so I have nothing to lose (or gain) from my collection!

What a tangled web we weave, when we practice to deceive.

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by SMPEP

I read all these threads on PWCC and no one ever mentions the ultimate solution - Don't pay higher prices for higher graded cards.

If the buyer's for high end cards go away, the card doctors go away - because they can't make money. Problem solved.

But no one on this board wants to hear that solution - because they're all sitting on high end, graded cards, and don't want to lose their "asset value."

Fortunately for me, my budget never allowed for buying higher end cards, so I have nothing to lose (or gain) from my collection!

+1 I am a poor guy with a ton of low end cards with little to no real value. They put a huge smile on my face when I look at them so I am happy.

[vintagetoppsguy]

Originally Posted by bnorth

+1 I am a poor guy with a ton of low end cards with little to no real value. They put a huge smile on my face when I look at them so I am happy.

That's what collecting should be about. I bet you're probably a lot more happy than the guys with deep pockets who set at the top of the registry.

[Frank A]

You know there are 2 or 3 threads on the board at the same time talking about the same stuff. Nobody seems to want to say the truth. So here it is. The lowlife card doctors who are repairing, yes repairing cards to get higher grades are nothing but PUKE. The auctioneers who are selling this stuff are not 1 notch higher. They know who is giving them cards to sell but keep right on with it. And third the Grading company's who pass this stuff are disgusting. They take the hard earned money of collectors to grade their cards but kiss the asses of the big submitters. They are the lowest of the group. That's the truth here, not all the nonsense being pushed on this thread.

[vintagebaseballcardguy]

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

That's what collecting should be about. I bet you're probably a lot more happy than the guys with deep pockets who set at the top of the registry.

David and Ben,

I have been thinking this throughout these threads. I have recently purchased two Cobbs, a Lajoie, and a Mathewson...all 2s with nice eye appeal and obvious flaws. I also have picked up E90-1 commons that aren't exactly high grade, and I really enjoy them. I am not afraid to touch them and hold them. It is fascinating to me where all they have been, who has owned them, etc.



Sent from my SM-G960U using Tapatalk

[vintagebaseballcardguy]

Originally Posted by bnorth

+1 I am a poor guy with a ton of low end cards with little to no real value. They put a huge smile on my face when I look at them so I am happy.

Agreed!

Sent from my SM-G960U using Tapatalk

[CMIZ5290]

Not to change the subject, but what ever happened to all of the bid shilling talk? Did it just magically disappear?

[swarmee]

It pops up from time to time, but it's not as sustained or investigated as it was a couple of years ago when the 1950s HOF rookies were tripling in a year.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by swarmee

It pops up from time to time, but it's not as sustained or investigated as it was a couple of years ago when the 1950s HOF rookies were tripling in a year.

Tripling in a month in some cases lol.

[irv]

Originally Posted by MULLINS5

I was just about to pull the trigger on a very expensive PSA hockey card, but I really have no choice but to hold off for awhile after reading what has been coming out. I'm just now hearing this and getting caught up to speed.

Brent says PWCC is not a grading company - but they are. "High-End" "Exceptional" etc. They say they can offer these grades based on their experience in handling more trading cards than anyone else in the industry. So, why can't they detect alterations?

They couldn't just list a graded card and give a small description and let the pictures sell the card. They used the most ridiculous hyperbole I've ever read for trading cards and developed a grading system for them.

Not surprised it's come to this. Won't be surprised if it comes out someone at PWCC was aware of the scamming.

That was likely a very good decision! Just noticed this Boom Boom Geoffrion card on BO that received some very serious trimming that PSA, again, didn't catch.
https://www.blowoutforums.com/showth...290614&page=58

[ruth_rookie]

Originally Posted by bnorth

+1 I am a poor guy with a ton of low end cards with little to no real value. They put a huge smile on my face when I look at them so I am happy.

That’s the most awesome thing I’ve read in weeks! Truly what it’s all about.

[Fuddjcal]

Originally Posted by Frank A

You know there are 2 or 3 threads on the board at the same time talking about the same stuff. Nobody seems to want to say the truth. So here it is. The lowlife card doctors who are repairing, yes repairing cards to get higher grades are nothing but PUKE. The auctioneers who are selling this stuff are not 1 notch higher. They know who is giving them cards to sell but keep right on with it. And third the Grading company's who pass this stuff are disgusting. They take the hard earned money of collectors to grade their cards but kiss the asses of the big submitters. They are the lowest of the group. That's the truth here, not all the nonsense being pushed on this thread.

IN A NUTSHELL! This sums it up for how I feel as well. Thanks for having the balls to put it out there. This is why it is so disgusting, IMHO.

[Fuddjcal]

Originally Posted by CMIZ5290

Not to change the subject, but what ever happened to all of the bid shilling talk? Did it just magically disappear?

that is Hilarious AND TRUE.

[drcy]

Originally Posted by bnorth

I am a poor guy with a ton of low end cards with little to no real value. They put a huge smile on my face when I look at them so I am happy.

I've always considered the paying of $80,000 for PSA 10 Topps Sandy Koufax and such to be like a different collecting hobby. It's "other people" who do that stuff and not an area where I collect. What they want to do is almost none of my business.

Though it does offend my ethical and moral standards and "history sense" when people altered what are historical artifacts for $$-- and, of course, when it's done in the process of scamming people and breaking the law doesn't help. That keeps me interested.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by drcy

I've always considered the paying of $80,000 for PSA 10 Topps Sandy Koufax and such to be like a different collecting hobby. It's "other people" who do that stuff and not an area where I collect. What they want to do is almost none of my business.

Though it does offend my ethical and moral standards and "history sense" when people altered what are historical artifacts for $$-- and, of course, when it's done in the process of scamming people and breaking the law doesn't help. That keeps me interested.

I think in 2016 an 8 might have sold -- allegedly -- for that. I will never forget Bill Goodwin touting it as a 200K card. He lost all credibility with me.

[drcy]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

I think in 2016 an 8 might have sold -- allegedly -- for that. I will never forget Bill Goodwin touting it as a 200K card. He lost all credibility with me.

I admit that my pricing may be way out of date.

[calvindog]

https://www.blowoutforums.com/showpo...postcount=1531

Here is Brent selling one of Gary Moser’s altered cards and lying by saying it came from a raw set. Interestingly it appears PSA caught this alteration and Brent or Moser had to get it past SGC.

This is about #398 of Brent doing good things for the hobby if anyone is counting.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by calvindog

https://www.blowoutforums.com/showpo...postcount=1531

Here is Brent selling one of Gary Moser’s altered cards and lying by saying it came from a raw set. Interestingly it appears PSA caught this alteration and Brent or Moser had to get it past SGC.

This is about #398 of Brent doing good things for the hobby if anyone is counting.

Raw COLLECTION, not set. LOL I guess you could call a group of altered cards a collection.

[CMIZ5290]

Originally Posted by calvindog

https://www.blowoutforums.com/showpo...postcount=1531

Here is Brent selling one of Gary Moser’s altered cards and lying by saying it came from a raw set. Interestingly it appears PSA caught this alteration and Brent or Moser had to get it past SGC.

This is about #398 of Brent doing good things for the hobby if anyone is counting.

+1 spot on....Unbelievable.....

[Republicaninmass]

Poor Brent, these card doctors keep nailing him to the cross.

If Brent said it came from a raw set, he subbed it?

[CMIZ5290]

Originally Posted by calvindog

https://www.blowoutforums.com/showpo...postcount=1531

Here is Brent selling one of Gary Moser’s altered cards and lying by saying it came from a raw set. Interestingly it appears PSA caught this alteration and Brent or Moser had to get it past SGC.

This is about #398 of Brent doing good things for the hobby if anyone is counting.

I remember doing business with Brent in the late 90's when I believe he was playing high school football.....He has really stepped up his game

[CMIZ5290]

Originally Posted by Republicaninmass

Poor Brent, these card doctors keep nailing him to the cross.

If Brent said it came from a raw set, he subbed it?

Another spot on...

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by CMIZ5290

I remember doing business with Brent in the late 90's when I believe he was playing high school football.....He has really stepped up his game

I wonder whose cards he was selling way back then.

[calvindog]

It’s times like this I miss Jay Behrens on the board.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by calvindog

It’s times like this I miss Jay Behrens on the board.

He loved piñatas, as I recall.

[Leon]

It is times like this I wish you would text more.

Originally Posted by calvindog

It’s times like this I miss Jay Behrens on the board.

[brad31]

I read that description on the Hornsby as PWCC knowing whom it came form and then subbing the card on his behalf. To me this now gets to the level where PWCC shares more blame than SGC on this card or PSA on cards they submitted to them.

Knowing this card comes from Gary Moser and actually submitting it on his behalf because he is presumably on a “no submission” list from The TPGs is purposely trying to get an altered card through. He is using his reputation and clout as a large customer of the grading companies to add credibility to an altered card. While this card is not trimmed like the others something was certainly done to remove the discolorations.

Up until this point I was thinking the TPGs were primarily at fault. Now I put it more at 50-50. I was a customer of PWCC - I am going to spend my $ elsewhere now. I am certainly not a large customer by their standards - but if enough smaller fish (a few grand a year) stop buying from them it may hurt their bottom line at least a little bit.

I hope I was not duped with any of my purchases from them. I am sure all large sellers have unknowingly sold altered cards - but this seems more shady than that.

Edited to add name per request from Leon: Brad Sherlag

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by brad31

I read that description on the Hornsby as PWCC knowing whom it came form and then subbing the card on his behalf. To me this now gets to the level where PWCC shares more blame than SGC on this card or PSA on cards they submitted to them.

Knowing this card comes from Gary Moser and actually submitting it on his behalf because he is presumably on a “no submission” list from The TPGs is purposely trying to get an altered card through. He is using his reputation and clout as a large customer of the grading companies to add credibility to an altered card. While this card is not trimmed like the others something was certainly done to remove the discolorations.

Up until this point I was thinking the TPGs were primarily at fault. Now I put it more at 50-50. I was a customer of PWCC - I am going to spend my $ elsewhere now. I am certainly not a large customer by their standards - but if enough smaller fish (a few grand a year) stop buying from them it may hurt their bottom line at least a little bit.

I hope I was not duped with any of my purchases from them. I am sure all large sellers have unknowingly sold altered cards - but this seems more shady than that.

One wonders, assuming Brent was just the nominal purchaser/submitter as I believe he stated, on whose behalf he was acting on the 36 WWG DiMaggio. I suppose one could speculate and one might be right.

[Sterling Sports Auctions]

Originally Posted by calvindog

It’s times like this I miss Jay Behrens on the board.

Most people that are on Net 54 have no idea who my brother is (Some days I wish the same. :-)) and the choas he could drum up.

Lee Behrens

[brad31]

In assigning blame I neglected to mention the person who doctored the card.

Card Doctor = perpetrator - 50%

PWCC = facilitator (until vouching for the collection the raw card that they submitted came from in the card’s write-up thought they were the first victim) - 25%

TPG - first victim but is in business to find these - 24%

Collector who was duped and bought the card - 1% - main victim - but most of us see a beautiful card and want to believe it somehow was well preserved for all this time. To me this collector has the obligation to present back to the TPG if made aware and try to collect on the guarantee and hopefully end the string. For this to happen the TPG needs to keep or destroy the card. Otherwise....

Someone cracks out - resubmits - TPG misses it and the cycle repeats.

To me PSA as the largest TPG should be looking ahead to try and better stop this. They should be scanning every graded card. They should invest in software that matches a card to the same card if in their database. The likely match photos should be given to the graders. This is likely years away but if they cannot do what the sleuths that comb through worthpoint can do at some point - then their credibility will go away. Until that time they need to use these cards as training material for their graders and look at if their throughout expectations allow for sufficient time to see some of these. They will never be perfect - but hopefully they strive to get better. This is what their business is built on and hopefully they understand that and are investing in continuous improvement.

Each time a fraudster’s EBay buyer ID is discovered, the sleuths find scores of examples of alterations from the same person that slipped through the TPGs. This over time leaves a bad taste for more and more collectors.

I do not post here very often but did bid and lose on one of the cards that was exposed. I resisted graded cards until it seemed like there were few raw higher grade cards of HOF from the 50’s and 60’s. As the proportion swung it seemed like there must be something wrong with anything raw even if I cannot see it. I believe I have the ability and knowledge to look at a raw card and assess a grade. I do not believe I have the knowledge to find alterations. That is what I pay a premium for graded cards to do on my behalf. I love this hobby and my collection. I am sure I have altered cards. If one of mine ever shows up I plan on contacting the TPG.

These posts are one collectors opinion on this latest grouping of permanently damaged cards.

Brad Sherlag

[bounce]

Originally Posted by brad31

To me this collector has the obligation to present back to the TPG if made aware and try to collect on the guarantee and hopefully end the string. For this to happen the TPG needs to keep or destroy the card. Otherwise....

That's not really how the guarantee works, does it? They give you the difference in value between what it says and what it really is.

Why couldn't you keep the money and the card reslabbed as whatever it should say (presumably altered in most of these instances)?

Yes, leaves open the possibility that it makes it back into circulation, but that's really the issue at the TPG.

I don't see destroying the card as an option unless the current owner just says "here take it back." I guess at that point the TPG could do what they want.

[brad31]

I would rather have the whole value from the TPG. I do not knowingly collect altered cards and my fear is if I sold it it would end up in a graded holder again in the future. If they gave me the card back As my only choice I would have to sell it in the altered holder and hope it stays that way.

I think the TPG would be better off keeping the card stamping it altered and using it to train their graders. I know this will probably never happen.

[jchcollins]

Good grief, go read the comments over on the actual YouTube video...they mirror some of the threads here. PWCC at this point is delusional if they think anything good is going to come from this "conservation" sham.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by jchcollins

Good grief, go read the comments over on the actual YouTube video...they mirror some of the threads here. PWCC at this point is delusional if they think anything good is going to come from this "conservation" sham.

Most -- not all -- are smart and savvy enough to see right through it.

[D. Bergin]

Confused a bit here. I've skimmed through this entire thread, even did a word search on my computer, but haven't exactly stayed up to date on all the other threads on this subject.

It seems like Brent and PWCC keep using the word "conservation", when they should really be using the word "restoration", because that's what's really going on with most of these cards.

If he want's to push this agenda at least use the right terms. It's something that's perfectly acceptable in other hobbies and collectible fields, as long as it's disclosed..........and then the market decides what those things are actually worth in comparison to the originals.

Conservation indicates you're using some sort of process to keep the item from being damaged to begin with. Like putting it in a slab, or a plastic sheet, or coating it with rust protector.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Yes this has been noted many times, he can't even get the vocabulary right. Or it's deliberate misuse of the word, because conservation sounds so benign and well intentioned.

[D. Bergin]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Yes this has been noted many times, he can't even get the vocabulary right. Or it's deliberate misuse of the word, because conservation sounds so benign and well intentioned.

LOL, nevermind. I just saw the other thread right at the top of the front page.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by D. Bergin

LOL, nevermind. I just saw the other thread right at the top of the front page.

LOL. If you have a few minutes check out some of the links to Blowout. Viewed in that context, it's all .... in my opinion ... disingenuous as hell.

[iowadoc77]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

LOL. If you have a few minutes check out some of the links to Blowout. Viewed in that context, it's all .... in my opinion ... disingenuous as hell.

A minute?! Try several hours! The evidence is mounting. And great wording- disingenuous as hell

[CMIZ5290]

What is really sickening is all the money he manages to keep on making on Ebay despite obvious bad doings, disregarding warnings and threats from other people, and he just keeps laughing all the way to the bank. First the bid shilling and now this latest bull shit.

[ullmandds]

Originally Posted by CMIZ5290

What is really sickening is all the money he manages to keep on making on Ebay despite obvious bad doings, and he just keeps laughing all the way to the bank. First the bid shilling and now this latest bull shit.

Kevin....agreed!!! We have found common ground!!! Have your opinions changed regarding PSA’s credibility?

[drcy]

I agree in no name calling and all that, and Net54 can sometimes get harsh.

However when someone posts (paraphrase) the reasoning that "Altered cards are worth less than unaltered cards, thus there is no incentive to sneak altered cards past graders," it is not a matter of poll or chatboard debate or number supportive PMs as to whether that statement is illogical. It just is.

[Fuddjcal]

Originally Posted by Leon

It is times like this I wish you would text more.

That's funny.... We love ya Leon.