Alteration vs. Conservation Defined

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by oldjudge

Pretty simple solution to all this, if you don’t like the way PWCC does business don’t deal with them. I was unhappy with a card I bought on EBay several months back. I returned it to PWCC, got a refund, and will not deal with them again. Everyone needs to decide for themselves who they choose to deal with.

It depends how you define "all this." If you define it as the problem of altered cards being slabbed, that problem is pervasive and the solution if there is one is going to involve law enforcement coming down on card doctors who for decades now have just mocked the hobby and become rich in the process, and the TPGs especially PSA improving their detection methods.

[oldjudge]

Extraneous words on my part. If you delete "to all this" from my post my thought remains as intended.

[AGuinness]

After taking time to think about what PWCC's Marketplace Tenets might mean, I'm not sure it moves the needle that much. The broad reason is because these tenets are for dealing with PWCC, and while Brent and people there can refer to it as the "Market" (with a capital 'M'), they're talking about the PWCC marketplace and not the larger market. And as has been mentioned, the larger market has its established opinions on alterations.
What remains to be seen is if PWCC will include anything about disclosures in their tenets, which will go a long way in knowing how this will all play out. Altering, conserving, rebuilding, rejuvenating... whatever anybody wants to call it; this stuff happens and as long as this is disclosed to buyers, then that's between the seller and the potential buyers. But if any seller doesn't disclose what was done to a card, no matter what they call it, then that's a problem.
Somebody mentioned the adage that stuff trumps all. I think that's partly true. Stuff matters, but relationships also matter. And I know I'm not the only one that will flat-out not buy from a seller who doesn't disclose alterations/conservation/whatever that's been done to a card that they know of. If a "bent region of a card" has been laid flat (as given as an example in the first post), I want to know about it before bidding (much less buying) and I believe that is a reasonable expectation to have. And if any seller doesn't disclose this, I would no longer do business with them. It doesn't matter what stuff they have, I wouldn't touch it based on principle.
I'm also curious how the final wording of the PWCC tenets will look, as it is described as the "rules of engagement" for dealing with PWCC. If conservation is not a necessity to disclose and a buyer finds out after the fact, I believe that eBay's rules will dictate a return is possible - will these tenets follow suit? To that end, I believe it is held that PWCC has a different seller fee schedule than others; does PWCC also have a different set of rules and regulations with eBay that would potentially eliminate the right for buyers to return items "not as described," should they discover some conservation efforts that were not disclosed? These tenets would make more sense if PWCC had its own platform, which may or may not be the end goal for this business.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Please name one seller who does disclose? How can you know who doesn't so as to avoid them?

[AGuinness]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Please name one seller who does disclose? How can you know who doesn't so as to avoid them?

This thread has gone off the rails in other ways already, and while I typically don't like tangents, I'll indulge on this because it offers an opportunity to highlight a good seller (and add a photo of a card). I've bought from a number of people on this board and had great experiences so far, including the card below, purchased from mybuddyinc. He noted that it had to be trimmed (it is still raw in my collection, I may get it slabbed at some point).
As for those who don't disclose, I'm sure you can peruse some of the threads offering tales of purchases gone wrong, bad experiences and find out some of the sellers out there to avoid.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by AGuinness

This thread has gone off the rails in other ways already, and while I typically don't like tangents, I'll indulge on this because it offers an opportunity to highlight a good seller (and add a photo of a card). I've bought from a number of people on this board and had great experiences so far, including the card below, purchased from mybuddyinc. He noted that it had to be trimmed (it is still raw in my collection, I may get it slabbed at some point).
As for those who don't disclose, I'm sure you can peruse some of the threads offering tales of purchases gone wrong, bad experiences and find out some of the sellers out there to avoid.

I have a pretty good idea who to avoid at this point, and always willing to learn more, but my point is your stated standard -- I won't buy from anyone who doesn't disclose -- is not practical because you have no way of knowing who has something to disclose but isn't. And if you're only going to buy from people who have affirmatively disclosed something, that's an awful small universe.

[AGuinness]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

I have a pretty good idea who to avoid at this point, and always willing to learn more, but my point is your stated standard -- I won't buy from anyone who doesn't disclose -- is not practical because you have no way of knowing who has something to disclose but isn't. And if you're only going to buy from people who have affirmatively disclosed something, that's an awful small universe.

At the same time, one should be willing to give sellers the benefit of the doubt and a chance to do their job honorably. There are people I won't buy from for a number of reasons, some from my experiences with them (non-disclosure or otherwise) and others from the experiences I've read about from others who have posted here.
If PWCC's tenets do not address disclosure of alterations, conservation or whatnot, or if the tenets note that disclosure will not be performed on some at their discretion, that makes things pretty easy as far as I'm concerned.
And I'm fine with an awful small universe, if that what it ends up being. I'm not going to be a slave to buying cards regardless of their sources.

[TMKenKen]

Originally Posted by AGuinness

This thread has gone off the rails in other ways already, and while I typically don't like tangents, I'll indulge on this because it offers an opportunity to highlight a good seller (and add a photo of a card). I've bought from a number of people on this board and had great experiences so far, including the card below, purchased from mybuddyinc. He noted that it had to be trimmed (it is still raw in my collection, I may get it slabbed at some point).
As for those who don't disclose, I'm sure you can peruse some of the threads offering tales of purchases gone wrong, bad experiences and find out some of the sellers out there to avoid.

I joined this site about 7 years or so ago. Scarcely comment, but always follow the forum. I have made a few purchases from other here, including Leon from whom I bought a few items shortly after joining. Unsolicited he disclosed the condition about each item, including that the item had been altered. That let me know that I could trust those here. This debate and the emphasis on disclosure lets me continue to believe that this is the right place to be. Thanks to all for that!

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Please name one seller who does disclose?

Raises hand.

[ullmandds]

Originally Posted by AGuinness

After taking time to think about what PWCC's Marketplace Tenets might mean, I'm not sure it moves the needle that much. The broad reason is because these tenets are for dealing with PWCC, and while Brent and people there can refer to it as the "Market" (with a capital 'M'), they're talking about the PWCC marketplace and not the larger market. And as has been mentioned, the larger market has its established opinions on alterations.
What remains to be seen is if PWCC will include anything about disclosures in their tenets, which will go a long way in knowing how this will all play out. Altering, conserving, rebuilding, rejuvenating... whatever anybody wants to call it; this stuff happens and as long as this is disclosed to buyers, then that's between the seller and the potential buyers. But if any seller doesn't disclose what was done to a card, no matter what they call it, then that's a problem.
Somebody mentioned the adage that stuff trumps all. I think that's partly true. Stuff matters, but relationships also matter. And I know I'm not the only one that will flat-out not buy from a seller who doesn't disclose alterations/conservation/whatever that's been done to a card that they know of. If a "bent region of a card" has been laid flat (as given as an example in the first post), I want to know about it before bidding (much less buying) and I believe that is a reasonable expectation to have. And if any seller doesn't disclose this, I would no longer do business with them. It doesn't matter what stuff they have, I wouldn't touch it based on principle.
I'm also curious how the final wording of the PWCC tenets will look, as it is described as the "rules of engagement" for dealing with PWCC. If conservation is not a necessity to disclose and a buyer finds out after the fact, I believe that eBay's rules will dictate a return is possible - will these tenets follow suit? To that end, I believe it is held that PWCC has a different seller fee schedule than others; does PWCC also have a different set of rules and regulations with eBay that would potentially eliminate the right for buyers to return items "not as described," should they discover some conservation efforts that were not disclosed? These tenets would make more sense if PWCC had its own platform, which may or may not be the end goal for this business.

But once an "asset" is sold by PWCC it will likely be sold/traded at a later date no longer under PWCC's tenets. So this tainted asset will flourish without the disclosure of PWCC's tenets.

This is all so Ree-dickulous!!!!

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by ullmandds

But once an "asset" is sold by PWCC it will likely be sold/traded at a later date no longer under PWCC's tenets. So this tainted asset will flourish without the disclosure of PWCC's tenets.

This is all so Ree-dickulous!!!!

See you're learning the new lingo. I think you need some investment advice from Brent and crew now.