Alteration vs. Conservation Defined

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Leon

A few days ago before this thread was posted Brent and I spoke for 30 minutes to an hour on the phone (hey Brent). I told him the hobby has already decided what is altering and what isn't. While some agree or disagree, the hobby spoke many years ago. This is old news. While I think Brent wants to have the conversation to get it in the open I doubt any minds will be changed. These tenets are just one person's opinion. I know Brent thinks altering a card is bad but the definition of altering is the issue. Purists think erasing a light pencil mark is altering. It is but not in a bad way, to me. Using water to get dirt off of a card isn't bad in many collectors eyes, mine included. But some see it as altering in a bad way. Brent agreed that pressing a corner to make it larger is bad. Trimming is bad. Flipping down a corner that flipped up, not so bad. We have been talking about this stuff, on this forum, for well over 10 yrs and closer to 20. Minds aren't going to change soon. I am not so sure that only cleaning a card is alteration. For those that think Brent is knowingly doing bad things in the hobby I couldn't disagree more. Sure he is an advertiser here but if I thought he was doing bad stuff he wouldn't be. To each their own. BTW, holding a TPG accountable for something that can't be seen is absurd.

Your thoughts on accepting consignments from card doctors? Good thing or bad thing?

[Leon]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Your thoughts on accepting consignments from card doctors? Good thing or bad thing?

Are they in TPG holders? But besides that I don't associate with people who I think are doing bad things in the hobby. So, I guess that answer would be no. But even with a No answer, how hard is it for scammer to give the graded cards to another person to consign for them?

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Leon

Are they in TPG holders? But besides that I don't associate with people who I think are doing bad things in the hobby.

So if he does associate with them, is that a bad thing?

And please don't play the hiding behind the TPG card, given your knowledge of how many altered cards are in TPG holders.

[pokerplyr80]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Your thoughts on accepting consignments from card doctors? Good thing or bad thing?

What would banning a card doctor from consigning solve? They would just consign under a different name or have a friend or relative send the cards in.

As for this alteration vs conservation discussion I don't think the distinction is necessary from a seller or auction house. I'd be more interested to hear what PSA or SGC think.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by pokerplyr80

What would banning a card doctor from consigning solve? They would just consign under a different name or have a friend or relative send the cards in.

As for this alteration vs conservation discussion I don't think the distinction is necessary from a seller or auction house. I'd be more interested to hear what PSA or SGC think.

So if someone offers me money to do something unlawful or unethical should I take it on the theory that refusing won't do any good because they'll eventually find someone else who will? I really don't follow the argument.

[vintagetoppsguy]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Your thoughts on accepting consignments from card doctors? Good thing or bad thing?

Your thoughts on a defense attorney defending a client they know are guilty? Good thing or bad thing?

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

Your thoughts on a defense attorney defending a client they know are guilty? Good thing or bad thing?

1. I have no idea how that is relevant here.
2. Our society made a judgment centuries ago that all criminal defendants no matter how evil have the right to the effective assistance of counsel before they can be convicted. So I would say that ensuring that a defendant is afforded his or her constitutional rights is a good thing.

[vintagetoppsguy]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

I have no idea how that is relevant here.

Then allow me to explain. A defense attorney's job is to represent their client no matter if they know their client is guilty or not. That's their job! Brent's job is to act as a broker to sell cards on consignment on behalf of others. So why do people rake Brent over the coals for doing his job?

You might argue that Brent should disclose any known work done on a card (and I would certainly agree). But if a defense attorney knows his client is guilty, does he disclose that in court?

I think it was a very relevant question.

Or should we all do as I say, not do as I do?

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

Then allow me to explain. A defense attorney's job is to represent their client no matter if they know their client is guilty or not. That's their job! Brent's job is to act as a broker to sell cards on consignment on behalf of others. So why do people rake Brent over the coals for doing his job?

You might argue that Brent should disclose any known work done on a card (and I would certainly agree). But if a defense attorney knows his client is guilty, does he disclose that in court?

I think it was a very relevant question.

Or should we all do as I say, not do as I do?

David if you go any further out on that limb either it's going to break or you're going to fall. That is a tortured analogy. A criminal defense lawyer has a vital constitutional role. Brent does not.

[frankbmd]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

David if you go any further out on that limb either it's going to break or you're going to fall. That is a tortured analogy. A criminal defense lawyer has a vital constitutional role. Brent does not.

Perhaps Brent will redefine the constitution.

[CuriousGeorge]

Assuming all of this about Brent is true, isn’t he knowingly conspiring with the card doctors/submitters of altered cards whereas a criminal defense attorney is in no way involved with the crime? Isn’t there a clear distinction here?

[vintagetoppsguy]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

David if you go any further out on that limb either it's going to break or you're going to fall. That is a tortured analogy. A criminal defense lawyer has a vital constitutional role. Brent does not.

So a defense attorney doesn't have a right to refuse a case (if they know their client is guilty)?

Which leads me back to my original question. Why is it ok for a defense attorney to represent someone they know is guilty because that's "their job," but it's not ok for Brent to do his job? And don't give me an answer from some legal point of view. What is morally right, Peter? Isn't the truth that in either case, it's really just about the money?

[calvindog]

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

So a defense attorney doesn't have a right to refuse a case (if they know their client is guilty)?

Actually yeah, criminal cases assigned by judges to defense counsel can't be turned down or else you could lose your license. You may want to brush up on the Sixth Amendment. And I'm not sure there is a defense attorney in the history of this country who ignores their oath and only represents people he or she believes is innocent. Perhaps on Mars it's different, David?

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

So a defense attorney doesn't have a right to refuse a case (if they know their client is guilty)?

Which leads me back to my original question. Why is it ok for a defense attorney to represent someone they know is guilty because that's "their job," but it's not ok for Brent to do his job? And don't give me an answer from some legal point of view. What is morally right, Peter? Isn't the truth that in either case, it's really just about the money?

I see nothing morally wrong with representing a guilty person who is entitled under our system of government to representation. If lawyers shunned guilty or notorious clients, that system would fall apart.

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

Then allow me to explain. A defense attorney's job is to represent their client no matter if they know their client is guilty or not. That's their job! Brent's job is to act as a broker to sell cards on consignment on behalf of others. So why do people rake Brent over the coals for doing his job?

You might argue that Brent should disclose any known work done on a card (and I would certainly agree). But if a defense attorney knows his client is guilty, does he disclose that in court?

I think it was a very relevant question.

Or should we all do as I say, not do as I do?

Holy crap. I don't normally go in for name calling, but I will call this POST idiotic. You see no difference between your constitutional rights and shady business practices? I haven't continued reading as this stopped me in my tracks, so I imagine a bunch of other people have called you out on this, but HOLY CRAP.

[Peter_Spaeth]

David have you read the various threads on Blowout?

[vintagetoppsguy]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

David have you read the various threads on Blowout?

Peter, I am extremely proud to say that I have never visited that site.

But answer my question please. What are you accusing him of?

[Rooftop]

https://www.blowoutforums.com/showthread.php?t=1292005

Much better details in this thread

[mq711]

I would think that a high end seller such as PWCC would be a strong advocate against the very practice they are spearheading. Their clients/investors have made purchases based on various factors including high end/low pop cards. When a well centered vintage psa5.5 can be "conserved" into a 8.5, the previous investors of psa8.5s are cheated out of value by the same company they made their purchase from; just doesn't seem fair or a good practice of keeping your customers happy.

[oldjudge]

Other than possibly the PSA 8 Wagner, what doctored cards has PSA KNOWINGLY graded with a number grade? You use plural so I assume you have multiple examples.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by oldjudge

Other than possibly the PSA 8 Wagner, what doctored cards has PSA KNOWINGLY graded with a number grade? You use plural so I assume you have multiple examples.

Other than that, Mrs. Lincoln, how was the play?

But all kidding, and my suspicious nature aside, I think the problem is not corruption but that the doctors are ahead of the graders particularly the junior ones.

[vintagetoppsguy]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

I think the problem is not corruption but that the doctors are ahead of the graders particularly the junior ones.

I would like to think that the junior graders are not grading the '52 Mantles and other high end cards...but with PSA you never know.

[oldjudge]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Other than that, Mrs. Lincoln, how was the play?

But all kidding, and my suspicious nature aside, I think the problem is not corruption but that the doctors are ahead of the graders particularly the junior ones.

Agreed. I believe this is true in all authentication areas, probably most obviously in autograph authentication. I think PSA tries hard to identify doctored cards (as does SGC and Beckett) with less than perfect results.

[vintagetoppsguy]

Originally Posted by oldjudge

I think PSA tries hard to identify doctored cards (as does SGC and Beckett) with less than perfect results.

As I mentioned earlier in this thread, one of the very first things I educated myself on when I got into card collecting was how to distinguish between a factory cut and a non-factory cut. It's really not that hard. Look at the 3 cards in post #42. They all appear to be trimmed. How does PSA not catch a high end card that has been trimmed? Wouldn't a higher end card get more scrutiny? I don't fault them for letting "cleaned cards" slip by where there is not evidence left behind. You can't acknowledge what you can't see/smell. But how does a 'professional grader" not know how to determine a trimmed card?

Either way, you're still ignoring the issue. KNOWINGLY or not, why would you do business with a company that can't do what you're paying them to do?

[conor912]

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

why would you do business with a company that can't do what you're paying them to do?

I think part of the rub is that PSA's customers are not the card buyers, they're the card sellers - and PSA does exactly what the sellers pay for....grade and slab the card. Buyers have been led to believe that TPGs have they're best interests in mind, when that runs counter to the business model.

[calvindog]

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

Either way, you're still ignoring the issue. KNOWINGLY or not, why would you do business with a company that can't do what you're paying them to do?

Exhibits A-C as to why I'm doing business with PSA:







I paid about 11K total for these three cards. Grading fees were less than $100. What are they worth now?

[steve B]

Originally Posted by oldjudge

Other than possibly the PSA 8 Wagner, what doctored cards has PSA KNOWINGLY graded with a number grade? You use plural so I assume you have multiple examples.

The one over on the postwar side that graded an 8 but had a corner that layered and folded over, supposedly during slabbing. Which PSA folded back and reslabbed, still as an 8. That would be a good start.

In that case, PSA was both the doctor and slabber.


And the response was pretty much crickets.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by steve B

The one over on the postwar side that graded an 8 but had a corner that layered and folded over, supposedly during slabbing. Which PSA folded back and reslabbed, still as an 8. That would be a good start.

In that case, PSA was both the doctor and slabber.


And the response was pretty much crickets.

You mean the conservator.