Clemente or Koufax?

[Exhibitman]

Originally Posted by Mark17

Again my question is, with the season riding on Game 7, would Koufax have sat, if that day been Yom Kippur, and if he did, and the Dodgers had lost, what would have been the reaction of his teammates and fans?

As I said before in the excerpt you quoted, regardless of game 1 or game 7, Koufax would have sat it out because his position was not situational.

If you are asking about Jewish fans, frankly, I find your assumption that Jews would disapprove of the decision to sit out a game 7 rather than game 1 to be insulting. Do you really believe that Jews would place a baseball game over the holiest day on the calendar and resent Koufax for it? I was raised Orthodox and I sat out a ton of stuff as a kid. It is what we grew up with, so it would not put off Jewish fans. As for non-Jewish fans, there will be a few chuckleheads who resent it but anyone of faith or who respects people of faith will acknowledge that some things transcend a ballgame.

[Mark17]

Originally Posted by Exhibitman

As I said before in the excerpt you quoted, regardless of game 1 or game 7, Koufax would have sat it out because his position was not situational.

If you are asking about Jewish fans, frankly, I find your assumption that Jews would disapprove of the decision to sit out a game 7 rather than game 1 to be insulting. Do you really believe that Jews would place a baseball game over the holiest day on the calendar and resent Koufax for it? I was raised Orthodox and I sat out a ton of stuff as a kid. It is what we grew up with, so it would not put off Jewish fans. As for non-Jewish fans, there will be a few chuckleheads who resent it but anyone of faith or who respects people of faith will acknowledge that some things transcend a ballgame.

I did not insult anyone and I resent your saying that. It was an honest question. I do think principle trumps a baseball game. It's one of the reasons I like Rube Waddell so much - he'd rather leave a ballgame to chase a fire truck, to get to a fire, to save someones' life, which he did on several occasions. Waddell died from an illness he acquired while helping save people from a flood.

I hope you are right, that everyone would have respected Sandy's decision to sit out a Game 7 for his religion. The reason I asked is.............. I wonder.

[Empty77]

Originally Posted by Mark17

I did not insult anyone and I resent your saying that. It was an honest question.

Yeah, I re-read it and Mark17 didn't assume anything, that was read into his text; all he did was ask a hypothetical.

And although I don't really want to weigh in on the religious thing, as perhaps one of the few if not only readers of this forum with a doctorate in religious studies, I guess I can't help myself.

So on that point I'll comment that you're both probably incorrect on the spiritual front, in that I find it perfectly reasonable for either a fan or perhaps even more especially a professional/teammate to resent a player that was derelict in carrying out an otherwise contractually agreed duty due to indulging the hindrances of ultimately arbitrary accidents of religious ordinances on a calendar.

That is perhaps how someone that is not a 'person of faith' (however we each take that to mean) could see it, and the reality is that there's no one on earth qualified to judge against that view, as if not being a 'person of faith' somehow defines their thoughts/feelings/joys in life as less than.

I agree that some things transcend a ballgame, but I'm less sure that routine capitulation to a calendar qualifies as transcendent.

[Mark17]

Thank you, this is a very good reply. I didn't really give an opinion myself; I just asked the question. But my opinion would be similar: Some would call Sandy courageous, some would be angry and say he had shirked his duty and let his team and fans down at the worst possible moment.

Looking at how some guys, and I mean, really decent human beings, had their lives almost ruined by bitter fans, it makes me wonder if something like that might've happened to Sandy.

Fred Merkle was a very popular Giant until his "boner". His teammate, Fred Snodgrass, was often accused of losing the 1912 World Series throughout the rest of his life. Author Larry Ritter commented that Fred's obituary title read: Fred Snodgrass, who dropped a fly ball in the World Series.....

I knew a guy from New York who never forgave Tony Kubek for the Yankees losing the 1960 World Series. When I reminded him that Bill Virdon's bad-hop grounder hit Kubek in the throat, his angry reply was "He still should've flipped it to Richardson!"

And we all know about the sad tail end of Bill Buckner's otherwise great career, when he lost the 1986 Series.

Sandy was a very nice, very popular player. Would most fans have stood by him or turned on him? Personally I am very glad we will never know. I have more respect for Sandy's integrity than I do for the mob mentality that sometimes sets the historical narrative.

Now.... Had Sandy then proceeded to team with Drysdale in their dual holdout, which netted Sandy an unheard-of $40,000 raise prior to the next season, I think that might have really tipped the scale of public opinion against him. Had all this hypothetical stuff happened, we might view Sandy Koufax very differently than we do now, basically through no real fault of his. He might have been the Fred Merkle of the 1960s.

[Exhibitman]

Originally Posted by Empty77

I agree that some things transcend a ballgame, but I'm less sure that routine capitulation to a calendar qualifies as transcendent.

What Koufax did was not "routine capitulation to a calendar". Koufax was setting an example as a role model based on his understanding that as a prominent Jew in America he had a responsibility to "represent" (as the kids say). If he didn't take the position he did, even though he wasn't religious himself, it would have been much harder for other Jews to take the holiday off from their jobs.

You may not realize this but there was a great deal of institutional and informal anti-Semitism in America even as Koufax was playing for the Dodgers. There were bars or quotas on Jewish admissions to schools, restricted social and country clubs, closed career paths at businesses that would not hire Jews, and so on. My mother experienced comments at work in the 1970s (like open Christian proselytizing) that would have resulted in a slam dunk lawsuit today for hostile work environment and harassment; my father found himself asked to give speeches at social clubs where he was not welcome to apply as a potential member because of religion. That stuff has by and large disappeared but it was a real thing when Koufax made his decision, and to denigrate his decision as routine capitulation to a calendar is simply inaccurate.

As for the story of Clemente's demotion to Montreal, I guess I learned something new.

[Empty77]

Originally Posted by Exhibitman

What Koufax did was not "routine capitulation to a calendar".

I described it that way b/c what I'm arguing is that all religious ordinances are routine and ultimately arbitrary b/c they're all manifestations in our minds that are rooted in nothing that is part of the basic factual experience of life. By definition they are metaphysical thoughts/beliefs that are not measurable or demonstrable, and for that reason we can't even say that they are more significant than activities that might rightly be argued as fairly inconsequential ways for passing time, like games such as baseball--which someone else may quite literally treat with enough serious as to be their own experience of "religion."

So for Koufax, or anyone, in the act of *choosing* to follow their particular religion, to seem to have a negative impact on how a fan or teammate experiences their "religion" and that's where I'm arguing it may be improper to think that anyone holds the authority of choosing sides and assessing who is more justified at being resentful of the other based on their opinions on how to live.

But I guess debating religious philosophy is moving far afield of the OP's intent for the thread, which although he asked which do people 'prefer' he also couched that from the perspective of collectible value since he specifically requested the opinions of dealers, I guess meaning those with a sense of ongoing market value for collectibles.

Although I'm certainly not a dealer and not really even a big re-seller, mostly an acquirer at this stage, I suspect overall the answer to that is Clemente, although there have been some lower pop high-end Koufax items that came to market recently that went for quite eye-popping amounts (maybe that So Cal $$$ !?, and in the long-run unsustainable?).

I wonder if a more apt comparison would have been Clemente compared to Aaron and Mays, given the overlapping similarities that eliminate most of the points raised in the thread: all offensive players, same basic position no less, world-class HoF talents, virtually overlapping similar-length careers, and of course similar basic race issues (the language issue Clemente also dealt with being a notable addition)...

[rats60]

I would just like to add one thing about Koufax. He never pitched on Jewish holy days through out his career. This wasn't just a one time thing, but was part of who he was. He also had the full support of Dodgers owner Walter O'Malley. So, the question of would this have been different had it been game 7 or 1 is no. I don't think the Dodger fan base would have treated Koufax any different. There are things more important than a baseball game. I have nothing but respect for Koufax.

[Mark17]

Originally Posted by rats60

I would just like to add one thing about Koufax. He never pitched on Jewish holy days through out his career. This wasn't just a one time thing, but was part of who he was. He also had the full support of Dodgers owner Walter O'Malley. So, the question of would this have been different had it been game 7 or 1 is no. I don't think the Dodger fan base would have treated Koufax any different. There are things more important than a baseball game. I have nothing but respect for Koufax.

I would like to think you are right. But a lot of people in this country, especially today, don't have a lot of respect for religion and I think there would have been a very mixed historical legacy. One side being what you eloquently stated above, the other being that a guy, the highest paid player on the team, who was 100% healthy, chose to sit at the very time his team and fans needed him the most.

It's been an interesting discussion (at least I think so.)

[hcv123]

Originally Posted by Empty77

I described it that way b/c what I'm arguing is that all religious ordinances are routine and ultimately arbitrary b/c they're all manifestations in our minds that are rooted in nothing that is part of the basic factual experience of life. By definition they are metaphysical thoughts/beliefs that are not measurable or demonstrable, and for that reason we can't even say that they are more significant than activities that might rightly be argued as fairly inconsequential ways for passing time, like games such as baseball--which someone else may quite literally treat with enough serious as to be their own experience of "religion."

So for Koufax, or anyone, in the act of *choosing* to follow their particular religion, to seem to have a negative impact on how a fan or teammate experiences their "religion" and that's where I'm arguing it may be improper to think that anyone holds the authority of choosing sides and assessing who is more justified at being resentful of the other based on their opinions on how to live.

But I guess debating religious philosophy is moving far afield of the OP's intent for the thread, which although he asked which do people 'prefer' he also couched that from the perspective of collectible value since he specifically requested the opinions of dealers, I guess meaning those with a sense of ongoing market value for collectibles.

Although I'm certainly not a dealer and not really even a big re-seller, mostly an acquirer at this stage, I suspect overall the answer to that is Clemente, although there have been some lower pop high-end Koufax items that came to market recently that went for quite eye-popping amounts (maybe that So Cal $$$ !?, and in the long-run unsustainable?).

I wonder if a more apt comparison would have been Clemente compared to Aaron and Mays, given the overlapping similarities that eliminate most of the points raised in the thread: all offensive players, same basic position no less, world-class HoF talents, virtually overlapping similar-length careers, and of course similar basic race issues (the language issue Clemente also dealt with being a notable addition)...

This has been one of the most educational and awesome conversations I have ever seen on this board! Thank you all for your contributions. Mike! I am going to read that a couple more times and really ponder what you shared - so deep - so cool! Perception becomes our subjective reality!

[Empty77]

Originally Posted by hcv123

This has been one of the most educational and awesome conversations I have ever seen on this board! Thank you all for your contributions. Mike! I am going to read that a couple more times and really ponder what you shared - so deep - so cool! Perception becomes our subjective reality!

Hi Howard, thanks.

It's a good trade for me. I'll provide the religious philosophy (mercifully only very sparingly, let's hope, when the occasion arises) and meanwhile I get to learn from everyone else about everything I've missed in trading cards in the 20 yrs I was away from the scene...