Clemente or Koufax?

rats60 · #1 04-20-2019, 09:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JollyElm

Let me explain something that even a three year old will understand. This thread is about opinions, not facts. There is no 'correct' answer to the question at hand. So as much as you love thinking yours is the only opinion that counts, that's all it is, YOUR OPINION. And, for the record, I didn't even say who I personally think is better, greater, bigger or whatever. And you keep talking about parks and schools, which is laughable in this context. Roberto Clemente died tragically on a mission of mercy. After the tragedy, he was honored by having countless things named after him, much like our country did with John F. Kennedy after 11/22/63. Sandy Koufax didn't die tragically. In fact, he's still alive. How often is a park or school named after a person who's still alive??? That's your benchmark for comparison??? If he died young and horribly, there would be countless sites named after him (especially in the Jewish community) as well. (But I'm sure you'd argue about that too.)

Clemente faced something that even Jackie Robinson didn't, racism from his home town fans. He was often ridiculed because he was not only black, but Hispanic and didn't speak English. It is often refered to as double racism. He suffered as much as any player in MLB history. In 1969 in San Diego he was kidnapped at gun point and taken into the hills. They put the pistol in his mouth and were ready to shoot him when Roberto was able to talk them into releasing him.

Clemente repaid all the hatred directed at him with nothing but love. He gave back to the city of Pittsburgh and to his home island of Puerto Rico. He gave his life trying to save suffering people in Nicaragua. He is the example that Hispanics look to, now over 30% of MLB. There is no one that you can compare to Roberto Clemente when it comes to on and off the field.

I grew up in LA in the 60s when Koufax was at his peak. He was known as the left arm of God. In my opinion, he is the greatest left handed pitcher of all time. I have no doubt that if it wasn't for the arthritis in his left arm, he would be regarded as the greatest pitcher of all time. He put together the greatest 5 year run in MLB history while being less than 100% most of the time and missing big parts of two of the seasons. He is nothing but a class act, but he never could have the impact of Roberto Clemente.

JollyElm · #2 04-20-2019, 05:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rats60

Clemente faced something that even Jackie Robinson didn't, racism from his home town fans. He was often ridiculed because he was not only black, but Hispanic and didn't speak English. It is often refered to as double racism. He suffered as much as any player in MLB history. In 1969 in San Diego he was kidnapped at gun point and taken into the hills. They put the pistol in his mouth and were ready to shoot him when Roberto was able to talk them into releasing him.

Clemente repaid all the hatred directed at him with nothing but love. He gave back to the city of Pittsburgh and to his home island of Puerto Rico. He gave his life trying to save suffering people in Nicaragua. He is the example that Hispanics look to, now over 30% of MLB. There is no one that you can compare to Roberto Clemente when it comes to on and off the field.

I grew up in LA in the 60s when Koufax was at his peak. He was known as the left arm of God. In my opinion, he is the greatest left handed pitcher of all time. I have no doubt that if it wasn't for the arthritis in his left arm, he would be regarded as the greatest pitcher of all time. He put together the greatest 5 year run in MLB history while being less than 100% most of the time and missing big parts of two of the seasons. He is nothing but a class act, but he never could have the impact of Roberto Clemente.

Good points, all. Again, I didn't offer an opinion on who had it worst (obviously, it was probably Clemente). I simply bristled at the fact that some people don't seem to understand what types of problems a Jewish pitcher faced at that time. (I'm from NYC and Long Island, and have a lifetime of experience with the crap my friends, relatives, girlfriends, etc. went through on a daily basis. And I've celebrated countless Chanukahs, Passovers, etc., in my life and sat Shiva way too many times.) My problem is when that other self-absorbed dipsh_t comes on and laughably attempts to condescend to me.

hcv123 · #3 04-20-2019, 07:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JollyElm

Good points, all. Again, I didn't offer an opinion on who had it worst (obviously, it was probably Clemente). I simply bristled at the fact that some people don't seem to understand what types of problems a Jewish pitcher faced at that time. (I'm from NYC and Long Island, and have a lifetime of experience with the crap my friends, relatives, girlfriends, etc. went through on a daily basis. And I've celebrated countless Chanukahs, Passovers, etc., in my life and sat Shiva way too many times.) My problem is when that other self-absorbed dipsh_t comes on and laughably attempts to condescend to me.

So I am going to choose to ignore the personal attack, take the higher road and share the following: If you wanted to start a thread about how hard Koufax had it as a Jew playing baseball in the 50's and 60's then why don't you go start a thread on it - I fully AGREE - there is a case to be made!! - This thread however is one where the OP was comparing 2 players - Koufax and Clemente! IMHO - On just about any measure (except for pitching) on or off the field there is no comparison - that is the point I was simply trying to make. For the record - I am Jewish - have faced antisemitism and celebrated numerous holidays too!! Happy Passover - enjoy your second seder

rats60 · #4 04-20-2019, 08:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JollyElm

Good points, all. Again, I didn't offer an opinion on who had it worst (obviously, it was probably Clemente). I simply bristled at the fact that some people don't seem to understand what types of problems a Jewish pitcher faced at that time. (I'm from NYC and Long Island, and have a lifetime of experience with the crap my friends, relatives, girlfriends, etc. went through on a daily basis. And I've celebrated countless Chanukahs, Passovers, etc., in my life and sat Shiva way too many times.) My problem is when that other self-absorbed dipsh_t comes on and laughably attempts to condescend to me.

Yes, but it was Clemente that was kept off the Dodgers roster because of his heritage while Koufax was given a roster spot for 2 years in which he barely pitched.

Mark17 · #5 04-20-2019, 09:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rats60

Yes, but it was Clemente that was kept off the Dodgers roster because of his heritage while Koufax was given a roster spot for 2 years in which he barely pitched.

The Dodgers were forced to keep him on the roster for that amount of time because he signed for a bonus. That was the rule back then. In fact when the Dodgers and Sandy & his dad agreed to terms, the first thing the Dodgers had to do was get rid of a player to make room on the roster for Sandy. Everybody knew he wasn't big league ready, but the Pirates, Giants, and Braves were after him too, so that's how the Dodgers had to play it.

Bigdaddy · #6 04-20-2019, 09:32 PM

Just remember guys, no right answer here. Just 'Which one do you prefer?'

Like Mary Ann or Ginger.

rats60 · #7 04-21-2019, 08:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mark17

The Dodgers were forced to keep him on the roster for that amount of time because he signed for a bonus. That was the rule back then. In fact when the Dodgers and Sandy & his dad agreed to terms, the first thing the Dodgers had to do was get rid of a player to make room on the roster for Sandy. Everybody knew he wasn't big league ready, but the Pirates, Giants, and Braves were after him too, so that's how the Dodgers had to play it.

The Dodgers signed Roberto Clemente to a bonus too. They wanted to keep him on the roster, but asked Jackie Robinson's opinion since he was the team leader. When told that they would have to release a popular white player, Jackie said it would be best to not add another black (latin?) player. The Dodgers sent him to the minors, but everyone knew Clemente was a future star and the Pirates took him with the first pick of the Rule 5 draft.

Imagine how great the Dodgers would have been through the 60s with both Clemente and Koufax. My point is that when faced with keeping a player on the roster who was not ready for the majors, the Dodgers had no problem finding a spot for Koufax. However, for Clemente it was his race that kept him off the team.

71buc · #8 04-21-2019, 04:04 PM

I love baseball lifers like Clyde Sukeforth. His connection to both Clemente and Jackie Robinson is very cool. https://baseballhall.org/discover/go...lyde-sukeforth

Exhibitman · #9 04-22-2019, 11:25 AM

So much rancor and misinformation too.

Would Koufax be revered as much for not pitching game 7 rather than game 1? The question misses the point. Koufax's stance on pitching wasn't situational, it was ethical. Which game he had to sit wouldn't have mattered once the ethical commitment to honor the holiday was made. Hank Greenberg dealt with the same thing a generation earlier.

As for naming stuff, well, Jewish tradition is not to name children after living people. That's why we don't 'do' Sr., Jr., III, etc. Naming stuff after living people is also a bit uncomfortable in traditional life.

As far as Clemente goes, the Dodgers did not purposely get rid of him. Their front office screwed up: Clemente was signed to a bonus contract that required him to be on the roster but the team sent him down to Montreal anyway to hide him, which exposed him to the draft and enabled the Pirates to snag him. The Pirates scouted him and decided to make him the first round pick in 1955.

The story about Jackie Robinson making roster decisions on Clemente is probably apocryphal. First of all, the starting line-up in the outfield for the Dodgers in 1954 was Robinson (LF), Snider (CF) and Furillo (RF). They didn't need Clemente. Where was Clemente going to play? Gilliam (another black guy) had displaced Robinson from 2nd to left. Was the team going to stick a rookie with no experience into center for Snider? Hardly. Furillo? Besides having a rifle arm, Furillo had just led the league in batting in 1953. He wasn't going anywhere either.

But let's delve deeper into the Dodgers racial composition and roster moves. Suggesting that the Dodgers got rid of Clemente to keep a white guy implies that the other outfield roster spots were reserved for white guys, which is not true. In 1954 the Dodgers called up Sandy Amoros as a backup outfielder: black, Cuban Sandy Amoros. Who'd been up briefly in 1952 and was a known commodity at Montreal. To suggest that the team that broke the race barrier and that actively sought out black talent would then decide to suppress that talent for racial reasons, then call up another black guy a few months later, is a fanciful suggestion. Race may have been a consideration as it usually was in any American decision in the era but it wasn't the overriding decision in Dodgers roster moves, as is obvious from the actual roster moves. The more likely explanation is the one that Clyde Sukeforth offered to historians: the team signed Clemente because he had such great potential, then tried to bury him in Montreal to get around the bonus rule and lost him.

Now, back to Koufax. The Dodgers had a better line-up on paper than the Yankees, except for one thing: pitching. It was pitching that had beaten the Dodgers every Series. The Yankees had the arms. Koufax had a left arm touched by God; that was apparent from the outset. Hell, he struck out 14 Reds in a game as a 19 year old in 1955. The Dodgers were 'arming' for the Yankees. Outfield was not the same level of urgency.

the 'stache · #10 05-18-2019, 07:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rats60

He put together the greatest 5 year run in MLB history while being less than 100% most of the time and missing big parts of two of the seasons.

No disrespect intended towards Koufax, who was a phenomenal pitcher, but Pedro Martinez' seven year peak blows Koufax's five out of the water.

Koufax 1962-1966:
111 W-34 L (.766 PCT), 1.95 ERA, per 162 G average: 34 starts, 289 K, 63 BB. 0.926 WHIP, 2.00 FIP, 167 ERA+, 6.3 H, 0.6 HR, 9.4 K and 2.1 BB/9 IP, 4.57 K:BB.

Martinez 1997-2003:
118 W-36 L (.766 PCT), 2.20 ERA, per 162 G average: 34 starts, 300 K, 54 BB. 0.940 WHIP, 2.26 FIP, 213 ERA+, 6.4 H, 0.6 HR, 11.3 K and 2.0 BB/9 IP, 5.59 K:BB.

Koufax won three Cy Youngs and finished 3rd another season.
Martinez won three Cy Youngs, finished 2nd two other times, and 3rd another.

Koufax' year by year ERA+: 143, 159, 186, 160, 190
Martinez' year by year ERA+: 219, 163, 243, 291, 188, 202, 211

Between 1962-1966, the average OPS in the National League was .691.
Between 1997 and 2003, the average OPS In the American League was .771.

The two pitchers had virtually identical home runs, walks and hits allowed per 9 innings. They had comparable WHIP (Koufax 0.926, Martinez 0.940) and FIP (2.00 Koufax, 2.26 Martinez). Martinez struck out 2 more batters per 9 innings.

The difference is that while putting up highly comparable numbers, Martinez did it playing in an era where offense was clearly at a premium.

View Poll Results: Who do you choose?
Clemente	67	63.81%
Koufax	38	36.19%
Voters: 105. You may not vote on this poll

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