Are We Slaves To The Registry?

[frankbmd]

Originally Posted by Mark

It would be a lot like 1990. Except with eBay instead of the SCD -- and also except for the part where someone (aliens?) trim the borders from all cards. It was OK, but I was operating in the dark much of the time.

True, and certainly much of what has happened in the last thirty years has gotten the hobby to its current state. But to be clear, the questions are a menu. In a restaurant you rarely order everything on the menu, and on this thread you need not answer all the questions and come up with a unifying concept.

For example, for those of us who eschew the registry and its impact on pricing the answer to the title question is “no” as we are not slaves.

or

My problem with pop reports are the plethora of ways that the information may be totally inaccurate, leading to incorrect assumptions regarding rarity.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by frankbmd

True, and certainly much of what has happened in the last thirty years has gotten the hobby to its current state. But to be clear, the questions are a menu. In a restaurant you rarely order everything on the menu, and on this thread you need not answer all the questions and come up with a unifying concept.

For example, for those of us who eschew the registry and its impact on pricing the answer to the title question is “no” as we are not slaves.

or

My problem with pop reports are the plethora of ways that the information may be totally inaccurate, leading to incorrect assumptions regarding rarity.

I wonder how many posts have used both eschew and plethora.

[Vintagecatcher]

Frank forgot the most important question:

What if Leon's quarter never existed?

Answer: Bufferfly effect!

Patrick

[barrysloate]

I eschew gum...among other things.

[Bill77]

What if eBay allowed only 99 cent opening bid auctions without BINs?

I would have a lot less cards as I rarely win auctions.

[oldjudge]

The answer to the first four are that the hobby would be less wide spread and, even though my involvement with the registry is pretty minimal, I believe worse than it is today.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by barrysloate

I eschew gum...among other things.

And if you escheat, you will be estopped.

[Dpeck100]

I have a client that is really into 1950's classic cars. He has 18 that are in perfectly restored condition. He can tell you about every component and why each is valuable but the first thing he tells you about is how many were made and how many still exist.

The registry is nothing new to many forms of collectibles and it was only a matter of time until it came to cards. Something that attempts to track scarcity in quantity and quality is what drives collectibles markets so the registry shouldn't be viewed as something that is a negative.

Just this week Joe Orlando on his Twitter feed disclosed that PSA graded a 1932 U.S. Caramel William McKinley. In 28 years they have only graded two copies. Without the registry many would say this card is very rare and only a few are known. With the registry you can confirm that in 28 years PSA has only assessed two copies so it proves just how rare it is. Information is the key to confidence in collectibles so the more you can display the better.

The fact that a population report exists is extremely positive for card prices and I think it is a wonderful thing for the hobby. This scenario isn't slave like under any circumstances. Why anyone tries to fight the trend makes no sense to me. It isn't getting smaller but only exponentially bigger.

In terms of some of these what if's. It is pointless to even discuss because they do exist. We don't live in the great depression. There is money coming from every corner of the world so keeping a lid on prices just to appease a few isn't even possible. Why wouldn't people who collect things of value monitor and track prices? Of course they do that is a major driving force on how people determine what they think something is worth.

Puffery? Every consumer product has some level of puffery. Why do women where lingerie? To make you want it more. It takes seconds to take off but it certainly does the trick and entices you. People can pretend all they want that the fantasy descriptions don't help but they do. Humans like to read something and get excited and many auctions houses do a great job of putting lingerie on cards.

All of the information that is available to collectors has helped the hobby and I for one have no interest in going back in time.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Which flavor?

[frankbmd]

When rarity is related to condition?

And when condition for registry purposes is related to grading?

And when the difference between a “9” and a “10” is so trivial that if the same card is submitted 10 times and receives a “10” twice and a “9” eight times?

And when on the days that the card is in a “10” holder it is worth 10 times the value of the days that it is in a “9” holder?

And when the most valuable graded card with a 00000001 cert number has been trimmed?

I do believe there is problem with delusion of those who

1 - believe in the integrity of the Registry game

2 - willingly support the exponential price escalation to add a point to their registry set for self-aggrandizement

3 - demean competing third party graders as grossly inferior because of valuation differential between identical cards

4 - seem to think that hobby would be better served if there was but one monopolistic third party grader selling a myth.

I respectfully disagree and will tell you how I really feel if requested.

I have no problem with classic cars though.

[Bram99]

Originally Posted by Dpeck100

Something that attempts to track scarcity in quantity and quality is what drives collectibles markets so the registry shouldn't be viewed as something that is a negative...
All of the information that is available to collectors has helped the hobby and I for one have no interest in going back in time.

I don't know why many of the Net54 old-guard and frequent posters to this board want to look down upon the increasing trend of popularity of the PSA registry. Maybe they don't like the idea that the hobby has changed.

I have put forth the theory on earlier posts that I believe the PSA registry and its' network effect is the most important reason for the persistent gap in prices between the graded cards of PSA and other TPG's.

Call it being a slave to the registry if you want. Call it Kool-Aid. But despite what the septuagenarians and sexagenarians of this board may believe, the hobby is changing and the registry is a big part of it. MLB is not going back to 154 games. Kids are not learning cursive anymore. Kids write with only one space after a period now. And the registry is not going away. Embrace the change rather than mock it.

[Exhibitman]

Originally Posted by Bram99

I don't know why many of the Net54 old-guard and frequent posters to this board want to look down upon the increasing trend of popularity of the PSA registry.

Let me count the ways:

1. It devalues knowledge. Putting together a top registry set doesn't require that the collector learn how to assess a card, just how to read a flip.

2. It increases competition between collectors, needlessly IMO. Registry geeks are constantly measuring themselves against other collectors rather than enjoying their compadres' collections.

3. It drives up prices by giving rich collectors reasons to battle over top specimens, which has the collateral effect of pricing many of us out of certain issues.

4. It dramatically increases the cost of collecting: slabbing stuff is expensive.

5. It makes storage of a substantial collection more difficult.

6. it grants a third party with a profit motive tremendous power over the hobby and its participants.

[Dpeck100]

Originally Posted by Bram99

I don't know why many of the Net54 old-guard and frequent posters to this board want to look down upon the increasing trend of popularity of the PSA registry. Maybe they don't like the idea that the hobby has changed.

I have put forth the theory on earlier posts that I believe the PSA registry and its' network effect is the most important reason for the persistent gap in prices between the graded cards of PSA and other TPG's.

Call it being a slave to the registry if you want. Call it Kool-Aid. But despite what the septuagenarians and sexagenarians of this board may believe, the hobby is changing and the registry is a big part of it. MLB is not going back to 154 games. Kids are not learning cursive anymore. Kids write with only one space after a period now. And the registry is not going away. Embrace the change rather than mock it.

I started reading this forum in 2010 and didn't really start posting much at all for another five years or so. Back in the early days when card prices were just starting to take off the spread between SGC and PSA in terms of prices was fairly modest. This has always been an anti PSA and in love with SGC board and so it was easy to have the position of I hate PSA and they are what is wrong with the hobby even though they were dominating from a new card submission standpoint. Fast forward to today when there isn't a week that goes by where a thread is started highlighting the extreme spread between the two in prices and now it is no longer fun and games but hurting people in the pocket. I get it that people are upset because they know that the market has moved in a way that doesn't financially support their position or to its fullest extent and that hurts.

I can't help but laugh when people say that putting together registry sets doesn't take anything but money. That is completely flawed logic. Anyone who is putting together registry sets generally submits cards on their own, picks and chooses cards from other TPG and tries to cross them through either an in holder cross or a crack out. When I am staring at a raw card and determining if it is worthy of submission there is no flip on it and I need to make a good decision one whether to submit it because it isn't free.

Manufactured scarcity is what the hobby needed because sales of new cards had fallen so much that creating a lottery ticket scenario was the only way to get people to buy packs. If there was demand for 2 million of each card a year they wouldn't be doing this but those days are never coming back. The onset of third party grading population reports is met to do the same thing. It has been extremely effective in doing just that and is only going to get bigger.

There is one thing in life you can't do and that is stop change. It happens whether you like it or not and the card business was for ever changed when third party grading entered and that trend is only getting stronger and so one can either change with the times or fight it that is their choice.

[Michael B]

Originally Posted by Dpeck100

Just this week Joe Orlando on his Twitter feed disclosed that PSA graded a 1932 U.S. Caramel William McKinley. In 28 years they have only graded two copies. Without the registry many would say this card is very rare and only a few are known. With the registry you can confirm that in 28 years PSA has only assessed two copies so it proves just how rare it is. Information is the key to confidence in collectibles so the more you can display the better.

Skewed logic. The only fact you can confirm is that PSA has graded only two copies of that particular card. It does not speak to rarity. Your statement is based on the assumption that anyone and everyone who owns that card would want it in a plastic tomb with an artificial number attached to it. There could be any number of non-sports collectors who don't give a rats rump about getting their cards graded and tracked. They could be happy just owning the cards and keeping them as they are.

[doug.goodman]

Originally Posted by Michael B

Skewed logic. The only fact you can confirm is that PSA has graded only two copies of that particular card.

Actually, it only proves that the people who get paid for their opinions have seen at least one copy of that card, but possibly two different times.

[Dpeck100]

Originally Posted by Michael B

Skewed logic. The only fact you can confirm is that PSA has graded only two copies of that particular card. It does not speak to rarity. Your statement is based on the assumption that anyone and everyone who owns that card would want it in a plastic tomb with an artificial number attached to it. There could be any number of non-sports collectors who don't give a rats rump about getting their cards graded and tracked. They could be happy just owning the cards and keeping them as they are.

You obviously have no clue what you are talking about. If there was a plethora of them out there after 28 years of card grading more would have worked their way to third party graders. If this recent grading specimen comes for sale the "puffery" used will be glorious.


From PSA card facts.


The classic 1932 U.S. Caramel Presidents set (R114) contains one of the most highly-sought non-sports cards in the hobby, the extremely scare William McKinley card. The McKinley card was actually not confirmed to exist until the early 1990s and is so scarce that the set is considered to be complete at 30 cards rather than the 31 with McKinley included. Distributed in limited supply to encourage continued sales of their product to children attempting to complete their set. A redemption was available by sending in a complete set of cards to be exchanged for a one-pound box of assorted chocolates. In fact, the cards would also be returned with the candy, though defaced by cancellation stamps or punch holes.

[brian1961]

Originally Posted by Dpeck100

I have a client that is really into 1950's classic cars. He has 18 that are in perfectly restored condition. He can tell you about every component and why each is valuable but the first thing he tells you about is how many were made and how many still exist.

The registry is nothing new to many forms of collectibles and it was only a matter of time until it came to cards. Something that attempts to track scarcity in quantity and quality is what drives collectibles markets so the registry shouldn't be viewed as something that is a negative.

Just this week Joe Orlando on his Twitter feed disclosed that PSA graded a 1932 U.S. Caramel William McKinley. In 28 years they have only graded two copies. Without the registry many would say this card is very rare and only a few are known. With the registry you can confirm that in 28 years PSA has only assessed two copies so it proves just how rare it is. Information is the key to confidence in collectibles so the more you can display the better.

The fact that a population report exists is extremely positive for card prices and I think it is a wonderful thing for the hobby. This scenario isn't slave like under any circumstances. Why anyone tries to fight the trend makes no sense to me. It isn't getting smaller but only exponentially bigger.

In terms of some of these what if's. It is pointless to even discuss because they do exist. We don't live in the great depression. There is money coming from every corner of the world so keeping a lid on prices just to appease a few isn't even possible. Why wouldn't people who collect things of value monitor and track prices? Of course they do that is a major driving force on how people determine what they think something is worth.

Puffery? Every consumer product has some level of puffery. Why do women where lingerie? To make you want it more. It takes seconds to take off but it certainly does the trick and entices you. People can pretend all they want that the fantasy descriptions don't help but they do. Humans like to read something and get excited and many auctions houses do a great job of putting lingerie on cards.

All of the information that is available to collectors has helped the hobby and I for one have no interest in going back in time.

+100, David. I got so sick of the disparaging remarks on Net 54 regarding auction house lot descriptions. They MUST represent the consignor with all their might. While it is true that many items are all too well-known, their fame must needs be refreshed for potential bidders to ponder whether they want to bid to own said item. Then there are items that were scarce when issued, and somewhat rare to downright rare today. All too many collectors have little to no knowledge of them, not to mention their significance. How are they going to learn, or become intrigued and then intensely interested, lest the auction house let them in on what they're looking at?

--- Brian Powell

[frankbmd]

Change is indeed inevitable. In the tobacco era kids picked up discarded Cobb inserts off the floor of the tobacco shops if they were not yet smokers.

In the 50s kids like me could always get a nickel or two from their mothers for those 5 cent wax packs of Topps cards sold everywhere. A few collected sets but many made their bicycles roar.

In the 80s and 90s we were lured back into the hobby by those billions of high end Upper Deck cards that were destined to be the gold mine of the future, just as the 50s Topps Cards were beginning to appreciate in 80s,

But now how many “kids” are buying those $100, $500 and &1000 packs of manufactured rarity without getting a secured loan, understanding they only come with an implied guarantee of possibly recouping your investment, if you’re lucky, actually only if you're pretty damned lucky.

When old baseball cards began to show significant appreciation, I tried to determine what new, future collectible should I begin to hoard. The result of my brainstorm I do not believe has come to fruition yet, but I considered rarity in making my choice.

Drumroll please

Unopened Happy Meal Toy Packets from McDonalds

If they had taken off in value, just imagine the national depression that would have ensued in the young adult population who had consistently ripped open the toys before touching their burger.