Are We Slaves To The Registry?

[Bram99]

Originally Posted by Dpeck100

Something that attempts to track scarcity in quantity and quality is what drives collectibles markets so the registry shouldn't be viewed as something that is a negative...
All of the information that is available to collectors has helped the hobby and I for one have no interest in going back in time.

I don't know why many of the Net54 old-guard and frequent posters to this board want to look down upon the increasing trend of popularity of the PSA registry. Maybe they don't like the idea that the hobby has changed.

I have put forth the theory on earlier posts that I believe the PSA registry and its' network effect is the most important reason for the persistent gap in prices between the graded cards of PSA and other TPG's.

Call it being a slave to the registry if you want. Call it Kool-Aid. But despite what the septuagenarians and sexagenarians of this board may believe, the hobby is changing and the registry is a big part of it. MLB is not going back to 154 games. Kids are not learning cursive anymore. Kids write with only one space after a period now. And the registry is not going away. Embrace the change rather than mock it.

[Exhibitman]

Originally Posted by Bram99

I don't know why many of the Net54 old-guard and frequent posters to this board want to look down upon the increasing trend of popularity of the PSA registry.

Let me count the ways:

1. It devalues knowledge. Putting together a top registry set doesn't require that the collector learn how to assess a card, just how to read a flip.

2. It increases competition between collectors, needlessly IMO. Registry geeks are constantly measuring themselves against other collectors rather than enjoying their compadres' collections.

3. It drives up prices by giving rich collectors reasons to battle over top specimens, which has the collateral effect of pricing many of us out of certain issues.

4. It dramatically increases the cost of collecting: slabbing stuff is expensive.

5. It makes storage of a substantial collection more difficult.

6. it grants a third party with a profit motive tremendous power over the hobby and its participants.

[robw1959]

Originally Posted by Exhibitman

Let me count the ways:

1. It devalues knowledge. Putting together a top registry set doesn't require that the collector learn how to assess a card, just how to read a flip.

2. It increases competition between collectors, needlessly IMO. Registry geeks are constantly measuring themselves against other collectors rather than enjoying their compadres' collections.

3. It drives up prices by giving rich collectors reasons to battle over top specimens, which has the collateral effect of pricing many of us out of certain issues.

4. It dramatically increases the cost of collecting: slabbing stuff is expensive.

5. It makes storage of a substantial collection more difficult.

6. it grants a third party with a profit motive tremendous power over the hobby and its participants.

+1

[Bagwell-1994]

Originally Posted by robw1959

+1

I agree with all of these points. As a younger collector (ripe age of 37) who just wanted to spend a hard-earned life savings on baseball cards, started seriously buying last summer 2018, I must say, I was in for a big surprise/disappointment when I started buying up cards on Ebay.

I started with a 1941 Play Ball Ted Williams and Joe DiMaggio, simply due to the historical significance of that year (last 0.400 batting average, 56-game hitting streak, last year before those players sacrificed time to WWII). I used Beckett as a guide to gauge the value of the cards I was buying, simply because Beckett magazine is what I remembered as a kid as being the definitive price guide for cards.

I continued buying and buying and until, thanks to certain sellers (here's looking at you, Ed Hazuka!) began answering my questions and educating me as to vintagecardprices.com and PSA SMR price guides, the difference between PSA/SGC/BVG, etc.

Suddenly, it began to become very clear that there was an essential cold, calculated, scrutinizing monopoly on the value of cards. I thought "the older and more worn, the better!" but boy was I wrong!

Suddenly, my child-like joy of simply buying "old cards I'd never thought I would own" philosophy eventually morphed into trying to acquire the best centered and best PSA grades I could possibly afford.

Now, months later, and having invested in a $70K + value collection of cards, I can honestly look back and say: boy do I miss that original feeling, that original passion, of simply adoring those worn beat up cards for what they were.. before all the scrutiny and PSA-grading mentality took over the way I looked at baseball cards.

Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk

[Exhibitman]

Shain, you can go back to what you like. Check out OBC (Old Baseball Cards). There are some members on this board. They collect lower grade cards for the love of it.

http://mac.oldbaseball.com/

[Leon]

Originally Posted by Exhibitman

Shain, you can go back to what you like. Check out OBC (Old Baseball Cards). There are some members on this board. They collect lower grade cards for the love of it.

http://mac.oldbaseball.com/

Of course I am biased but I think he can do both here! There are thousands of collectors on our site who collect cards that don't cost nice-house-mortgages. For me, I like well worn and real nice.

C'mon dude, get up!!

[Dpeck100]

Originally Posted by Leon

Of course I am biased but I think he can do both here! There are thousands of collectors on our site who collect cards that don't cost nice-house-mortgages. For me, I like well worn and real nice.

C'mon dude, get up!!

You can also enjoy high grade cards and mid grade cards at the same time.

[Mrc32]

Originally Posted by Bagwell-1994

I agree with all of these points. As a younger collector (ripe age of 37) who just wanted to spend a hard-earned life savings on baseball cards, started seriously buying last summer 2018, I must say, I was in for a big surprise/disappointment when I started buying up cards on Ebay.

I started with a 1941 Play Ball Ted Williams and Joe DiMaggio, simply due to the historical significance of that year (last 0.400 batting average, 56-game hitting streak, last year before those players sacrificed time to WWII). I used Beckett as a guide to gauge the value of the cards I was buying, simply because Beckett magazine is what I remembered as a kid as being the definitive price guide for cards.

I continued buying and buying and until, thanks to certain sellers (here's looking at you, Ed Hazuka!) began answering my questions and educating me as to vintagecardprices.com and PSA SMR price guides, the difference between PSA/SGC/BVG, etc.

Suddenly, it began to become very clear that there was an essential cold, calculated, scrutinizing monopoly on the value of cards. I thought "the older and more worn, the better!" but boy was I wrong!

Suddenly, my child-like joy of simply buying "old cards I'd never thought I would own" philosophy eventually morphed into trying to acquire the best centered and best PSA grades I could possibly afford.

Now, months later, and having invested in a $70K + value collection of cards, I can honestly look back and say: boy do I miss that original feeling, that original passion, of simply adoring those worn beat up cards for what they were.. before all the scrutiny and PSA-grading mentality took over the way I looked at baseball cards.

Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk

Great post!

I think the only way to enjoy cards like when you were young is to not "invest" money in cards, simply buy cards you enjoy and change your mentality on making money when you sell. Just buy what you like and don't worry about ROI.

[Dpeck100]

Originally Posted by Bram99

I don't know why many of the Net54 old-guard and frequent posters to this board want to look down upon the increasing trend of popularity of the PSA registry. Maybe they don't like the idea that the hobby has changed.

I have put forth the theory on earlier posts that I believe the PSA registry and its' network effect is the most important reason for the persistent gap in prices between the graded cards of PSA and other TPG's.

Call it being a slave to the registry if you want. Call it Kool-Aid. But despite what the septuagenarians and sexagenarians of this board may believe, the hobby is changing and the registry is a big part of it. MLB is not going back to 154 games. Kids are not learning cursive anymore. Kids write with only one space after a period now. And the registry is not going away. Embrace the change rather than mock it.

I started reading this forum in 2010 and didn't really start posting much at all for another five years or so. Back in the early days when card prices were just starting to take off the spread between SGC and PSA in terms of prices was fairly modest. This has always been an anti PSA and in love with SGC board and so it was easy to have the position of I hate PSA and they are what is wrong with the hobby even though they were dominating from a new card submission standpoint. Fast forward to today when there isn't a week that goes by where a thread is started highlighting the extreme spread between the two in prices and now it is no longer fun and games but hurting people in the pocket. I get it that people are upset because they know that the market has moved in a way that doesn't financially support their position or to its fullest extent and that hurts.

I can't help but laugh when people say that putting together registry sets doesn't take anything but money. That is completely flawed logic. Anyone who is putting together registry sets generally submits cards on their own, picks and chooses cards from other TPG and tries to cross them through either an in holder cross or a crack out. When I am staring at a raw card and determining if it is worthy of submission there is no flip on it and I need to make a good decision one whether to submit it because it isn't free.

Manufactured scarcity is what the hobby needed because sales of new cards had fallen so much that creating a lottery ticket scenario was the only way to get people to buy packs. If there was demand for 2 million of each card a year they wouldn't be doing this but those days are never coming back. The onset of third party grading population reports is met to do the same thing. It has been extremely effective in doing just that and is only going to get bigger.

There is one thing in life you can't do and that is stop change. It happens whether you like it or not and the card business was for ever changed when third party grading entered and that trend is only getting stronger and so one can either change with the times or fight it that is their choice.

[frankbmd]

As an appendage to my prior post

If an item is truly rare, the sky is the limit on pricing. For example, if there are only two of an item extant, and ten people feel they “need” to have it in an auction, then have at it.

However if there are only two of an item based on a PSA Pop Report such as a “10” of any card, and if there are 87 “9” s of the same card or item and 342 “8” s of the same card, all of which are barely discernible as different without an electron microscopic, then there is something rotten in Denmark.

If you cannot differentiate between these two examples, you have missed the point of this thread. I am not on an campaign to eliminate the Registry or PSA, nor am I eager to return to the early years of the twentieth century and get my Cobbs by smoking Piedmonts.

Members of this board are entitled to have different opinions. Mine is not unique. Has the hobby become a lottery ticket or a casino based on manufactured rarity? If so, I consider that unfortunate change. I prefer to collect baseball history rather than sit at a blackjack table, and I have done both successfully.

[Peter_Spaeth]

TPG has many positives, but what I like least about it is that it has, IMO, resulted in the slabbing of a vast number of altered cards, enriched many a criminal card doctor, and created a generation of collectors who seem to have no knowledge of or concern about alteration.

[barrysloate]

David- I agree with you completely that the hobby is changing. Everything in life changes, and we don't always accept those changes easily.

But are you suggesting that part of what makes the new hobby great (my word "great") is buying raw cards to get them slabbed, and to look for undergraded cards to get them crossed-over? That doesn't give me a warm and fuzzy. If anything, it corroborates Frank's original point that we are becoming too beholden to third party grading.

Another way the hobby is changing is that set breaks have become extremely popular at baseball card shows. From what I hear, they have become a rage. But it seems to me that they could just as easily take place in a Las Vegas casino as they would at a baseball card show. It's really more a game of chance, like roulette or blackjack, than it is a form of card collecting.

So while these changes may be embraced by some, they make me long for the good old days. Hope the old fashioned way never goes out of style. Again, the history of what I collect is much more important to me than what label a quasi-expert slaps onto a plastic slab. That said, collect whatever you like, however you like doing it.

[drcy]

I'm definitely an old timer about collecting, in sentiments if not age, and am apt to criticize, and sometimes mock, the registry and grading. Believe it or not, I've never sent in a card for grading and have owned a total of perhaps 10 graded cards. However, there's no one-size-fits all to collecting, and if people enjoy set breaks and the registry that's no harm to me.

In the 1990s, I collected and sold modern cards (along with old), so I never criticize modern collectors or modern cards (sans those dumb autograph cuts ones). I think many modern inserts are rather neat.

To each his own.

[ullmandds]

Well Frank...if TPG'ers didn't exist, neither would the majority of your questions?

I believe the registry is voluntary...so we are not slaves to the registry...we are slaves to the TPG'ers!

[Touch'EmAll]

I can see how some people like the registry, others dislike. Whatever you like is ok. Years back I started a couple registry player sets, eventually stopped, not my cup of tea. The registry has helped drive up prices, that is good for what I own, no real complaints here on that topic. After all, don't we all want our stuff to go up in value.

As for TPGers, the biggest thing I like is being able to buy a PSA 7 card, and for the most part, you actually receive a true NMT card. Back before TPG, you often bought a supposed advertised NMT card, and was disappointed when you got it - not really NMT, overgraded and actually maybe EXMT. Then you get to haggle with the seller to send it back, the return, the wait, finally get a refund if all goes well.

[Dpeck100]

Originally Posted by barrysloate

David- I agree with you completely that the hobby is changing. Everything in life changes, and we don't always accept those changes easily.

But are you suggesting that part of what makes the new hobby great (my word "great") is buying raw cards to get them slabbed, and to look for undergraded cards to get them crossed-over? That doesn't give me a warm and fuzzy. If anything, it corroborates Frank's original point that we are becoming too beholden to third party grading.

Another way the hobby is changing is that set breaks have become extremely popular at baseball card shows. From what I hear, they have become a rage. But it seems to me that they could just as easily take place in a Las Vegas casino as they would at a baseball card show. It's really more a game of chance, like roulette or blackjack, than it is a form of card collecting.

So while these changes may be embraced by some, they make me long for the good old days. Hope the old fashioned way never goes out of style. Again, the history of what I collect is much more important to me than what label a quasi-expert slaps onto a plastic slab. That said, collect whatever you like, however you like doing it.

Barry my comment was simply saying that it takes more than money to create a top registry set. You have to hunt and take chances and money alone doesn't do that for you. There is real skill involved in finding raw cards or cards in other third party graded holders that you think you can achieve grades that work for you. I have hunted every single day since August of 2009 to build my sets. Left work dinners to go bid on cards forced wholesalers to bring their I-pads to lunches prior to me having a smart phone so I didn't miss out on chances to win. Stayed up wayyy past my bed time to make sure I won. Whatever it took. You have to want it and have passion and this notion that people who collect high grade cards only care about the slab is ludicrous.

I don't poke fun at people who only buy 5's and 6's. For the most part people buy what they can afford and so if that is what is in someone's budget so be it. If they are getting enjoyment out of buying and owning trading cards fantastic.

There was no graded wrestling card market before I came along. There wasn't countless people that said wow that is a great investment I need to get in. I decided to collect a genre of cards that I cared about and that would give me enjoyment. That is the best reason to collect in my view but there are plenty of others that are just fine too.

Many on here play in the big boy space where cards go into the millions. No one can convince me you should be buying a card that is more than 5k and not have investment as part of the reason you are buying it. I think a lot of people try and convince themselves that they are only doing it for purity. There is no such thing. There is no right way to collect but what is constant around here is people taking shots at those that like to try and put high grade sets together as if they are what is wrong with the hobby. Who in there right mind would rather stare at a card that is beat to shit vs. near perfect? No one. High grade cards are drastically more ascetically pleasing and if money was no object everyone would collect them. You have to stay in your lane and collect what you can but firing shots at those that want the best is ridiculous.

I am not an average guy. Have no desire to be average and so it wouldn't make sense for me to try and collect average cards. It took me seven years to finally get the last card for my 82 A Wrestling All Stars set in a PSA 9 or higher. I cried when I put it on the wall in its new home because it stood for dedication and passion and kicking ass.

Third party grading is here to stay and so one can choose to live with it and ride the wave or keep their cards raw but it isn't going anywhere and the trend is only getting stronger.

[barrysloate]

Thanks David, and I understand that you collect the way that makes you happy. I think the registry has caused prices on high end cards to increase so drastically that there are only a small number of people who can even compete for them. I collect VG-Ex to Ex not because I like to see flaws on cards, but because high grade cards are out of my range.

When I saw the 1932 U.S. Caramel Hornsby sell for $52,000, I was astounded. I understand chasing after a Wagner or a Plank or a 52 Mantle, because those are iconic cards and there are countless collectors who would like to own them. But in my 37 years in the hobby, nearly 30 of them as a full time dealer, I never once had a collector come to me looking for a U.S. Caramel Hornsby. That's an esoteric set, and while Hornsby was a great player, his cards are not as popular as Cobb or Matty or Wajo. That price was almost surely a product of two registry collectors going head to head until one of them blinked.

So yes, as you said the hobby has changed and many of us are scratching our heads and watching prices reach levels that we could never have imagined.

[frankbmd]

The concept of a 100 year old card looking near perfect is difficult for many of us to grasp. I saw the PSA 8 Wagner on display in Beverly Hills before the Sotheby’s auction where it was purchased by Gretzky and McNall. It indeed looked near perfect, but there was a problem with the card that was not disclosed at that time. Near perfect is not synonymous with untampered with and authentic. The genesis of the Registry began with the grading of that card.

If I had millions to invest (and I do not), and despite my love of the game of baseball, I honestly doubt that investing in near perfect 100 year old baseball cards would be my cup of tea. Call me crazy. That’s fine with me.

[Dpeck100]

Originally Posted by barrysloate

Thanks David, and I understand that you collect the way that makes you happy. I think the registry has caused prices on high end cards to increase so drastically that there are only a small number of people who can even compete for them. I collect VG-Ex to Ex not because I like to see flaws on cards, but because high grade cards are out of my range.

When I saw the 1932 U.S. Caramel Hornsby sell for $52,000, I was astounded. I understand chasing after a Wagner or a Plank or a 52 Mantle, because those are iconic cards and there are countless collectors who would like to own them. But in my 37 years in the hobby, nearly 30 of them as a full time dealer, I never once had a collector come to me looking for a U.S. Caramel Hornsby. That's an esoteric set, and while Hornsby was a great player, his cards are not as popular as Cobb or Matty or Wajo. That price was almost surely a product of two registry collectors going head to head until one of them blinked.

So yes, as you said the hobby has changed and many of us are scratching our heads and watching prices reach levels that we could never have imagined.

I just looked at the Pop report and there is one with none higher. I use term the best and someone will say it is not the best but only PSA says it is the best but regardless the new owner can say they own the best example that exists. The price reflects that.

One of the comparisons I have drawn in the past is cards can be viewed as art. In a case like this while $52,800 may seem like a ton of money for a single card there are pieces of art that go into the hundreds of millions. Many pieces that are not exactly ones that most even find appealing looking.

Trading cards are relics of history and so in reality as you are aware all it takes is two people with a lot of dough that want to own something and the sky is the limit.

Quite frankly when I see what some modern cards sell for it is easier for me to understand this price than some of those. I think a huge percentage of card prices are bragging rights. Getting to say you own something very few can. There really is no utility that cards provide and they are simply objects to admire. With there being small differences in cards that grade in this range the one thing you can revert back to is the idea that it is the finest known copy and so to someone that is worth a lot. It is a balancing act for me at times paying high prices just for condition rarity and in reality it comes back to the ability to replace it in that grade and the fact that I want to have the #1 set. Only one person from each set can say they do and this does fuel prices no doubt.

When I used to show people my wrestling cards they would laugh. I would say laugh all you want this is the only PSA 10 so far that exists. Are you serious??? Yeah. OMG that is really cool. This is just how humans are.