1936 Joltin' Joe

[ullmandds]

Originally Posted by Bram99

As a collector with a lot of cards, graded and ungraded, bought over many years from many shows, dealers, and auctions, this is really discouraging every time I see another one of these.

One aspect that is particularly discouraging is that no one on this board is surprised in the least. We congratulate the original poster for his great finding, and we move on and buy our next NM, NM-MT, or MT card that TPG's have certified as legitimate examples of an unaltered mint or nearly mint card.

For those looking for unique or hard to find cards and who do not have a long-term relationship with a reputable dealer, we are left with the options of a.) stopping collecting,
b.) buying lower grade or raw examples, or
c.) continuing to buy "certified" cards which we know are more and more likely to have been doctored for profit by a card tailor (alteration expert).

At some point if enough of this happens, there will be a tipping point. The collections we have spent good money on are sure to see a valuation impact. The valuation of this type of high-condition card is based on a combination of demand and scarcity.

If the scarcity can be addressed just by slicing off 1/16th of an inch on a border, how is that much different than just having another copy printed/made? Both outcomes reduce scarcity/increase supply, which in turn should reduce value in a market that is so sensitive to relative scarcity of high-condition examples.

Sorry for the rambling but this is really discouraging.

Q: Where have you gone Joe Dimaggio?
A: I've been to the card tailor.

YUP!!! While the tpg’ers continue to “print money” with their grading practices...and many AH’s continue to push these cards along...in many instances shilling all the way...as long as their wallets keep getting filled...combined with many involved in the hobby not really caring...and as repeated instances of wrongdoing go unpunished...ultimately the collectors will pay a price...its just a matter of time.

[hanes1111]

Where there is money there will always be corruption . Just the way it works unfortunately. This has been going on for so long and the blind eyes will remain as long as their is no accountability. Ive moved to collecting more antique memorabilia and antiques in general because of this. The new stuff is just as bad....used to be game worn/game used with pictures of the jersey or bat on the card and the companies would guarantee it, now its worded so vague and the sticker autograph and redemption crap is such a reach. I love cards but have lost all faith in the industry. Grading has become just another angle to scam more people. Only way to stop it or curb it is have an unbiased machine or program do the grading so all you tech guys get on it!

[chalupacollects]

Hopefully, those engineers out west who are patenting that digital grading system get their act together quickly and come out as a new more foolproof TPG...would eliminate the crack and resubmit issue...and force the existing ones to clean up their act or disappear...

[ullmandds]

Originally Posted by chalupacollects

Hopefully, those engineers out west who are patenting that digital grading system get their act together quickly and come out as a new more foolproof TPG...would eliminate the crack and resubmit issue...and force the existing ones to clean up their act or disappear...

Sure...and good luck getting the millions of cards that have already been graded...REGRADED...at further expense...and at RISK of major devaluation.

[ctownboy]

I would love to see the authorities get involved and tell Heritage to pull the card from the auction. But instead of sending it back to the owner, they tell Heritage to hold it for them so they can book it as evidence. Then they can go back and find who the owner was who doctored or who had the card doctored. Then maybe some people will be going to jail for this.

My wishful thought for the day....

David

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by ctownboy

I would love to see the authorities get involved and tell Heritage to pull the card from the auction. But instead of sending it back to the owner, they tell Heritage to hold it for them so they can book it as evidence. Then they can go back and find who the owner was who doctored or who had the card doctored. Then maybe some people will be going to jail for this.

My wishful thought for the day....

David

One wishes, but the most likely outcome is this one card gets pulled, there are no consequences, and everyone goes back to doing what they were.

[Leon]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

One wishes, but the most likely outcome is this one card gets pulled, there are no consequences, and everyone goes back to doing what they were.

Just like with the Desmond debacle. I lost most of my interest in helping to fight fraud after that "non-issue" of authorities not helping. It seems most authorities don't care, quite honestly. Or if they do care their prosecutors don't. The whole grading hobby is sort of predicated on a trimmed card in an 8 holder. Kind of says a lot....

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Leon

Just like with the Desmond debacle. I lost most of my interest in helping to fight fraud after that "non-issue" of authorities not helping. It seems most authorities don't care, quite honestly. Or if they do care their prosecutors don't. The whole grading hobby is sort of predicated on a trimmed card in an 8 holder. Kind of says a lot....

I had a memorable conversation with one such authority about card doctoring and that very point about the Wagner was made.

[darwinbulldog]

Originally Posted by ullmandds

Sure...and good luck getting the millions of cards that have already been graded...REGRADED...at further expense...and at RISK of major devaluation.

Well, I don't think anyone's expecting that to be the immediate consequence, but whenever it becomes clear that the robot graders are better than their human counterparts, the PSA and SGC slabs will start looking a lot more like GAI slabs. Or there will be a merger, and one of those companies will lay off all its graders.

[hanes1111]

Originally Posted by darwinbulldog

Well, I don't think anyone's expecting that to be the immediate consequence, but whenever it becomes clear that the robot graders are better than their human counterparts, the PSA and SGC slabs will start looking a lot more like GAI slabs. Or there will be a merger, and one of those companies will lay off all its graders.

This ^^^^^^

[chalupacollects]

Originally Posted by ullmandds

Sure...and good luck getting the millions of cards that have already been graded...REGRADED...at further expense...and at RISK of major devaluation.

Well once that automated system proves itself the legacy TPG's product will start to eventually look to be less desirable… Who would want a card graded 9 that could've possibly have been viewed as doctored versus once that can be shown to be 100% free of that stigma?

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

Originally Posted by chalupacollects

Hopefully, those engineers out west who are patenting that digital grading system get their act together quickly and come out as a new more foolproof TPG...would eliminate the crack and resubmit issue...and force the existing ones to clean up their act or disappear...

There's a play by David Mamet called The Water Engine. I recommend it highly.

[JollyElm]

Originally Posted by chalupacollects

Hopefully, those engineers out west who are patenting that digital grading system get their act together quickly and come out as a new more foolproof TPG...would eliminate the crack and resubmit issue...and force the existing ones to clean up their act or disappear...

If that happens, "eye appeal" will turn into "cold electronic eye appeal."

[darwinbulldog]

Originally Posted by JollyElm

If that happens, "eye appeal" will turn into "cold electronic eye appeal."

It shouldn't be too hard to plug in human eye appeal ratings for a bunch of cards and have a computer extract the relevant variables (image contrast, color saturation, location of damage relative to location of the player's face, etc.) so that it can judge eye appeal well enough to pass a Net54 Turing test. Could even use fMRI data if we want to get really fancy, but I think a simple 1-10 scale from the humans would be sufficient.