1936 Joltin' Joe

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by ctownboy

I would love to see the authorities get involved and tell Heritage to pull the card from the auction. But instead of sending it back to the owner, they tell Heritage to hold it for them so they can book it as evidence. Then they can go back and find who the owner was who doctored or who had the card doctored. Then maybe some people will be going to jail for this.

My wishful thought for the day....

David

One wishes, but the most likely outcome is this one card gets pulled, there are no consequences, and everyone goes back to doing what they were.

[Leon]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

One wishes, but the most likely outcome is this one card gets pulled, there are no consequences, and everyone goes back to doing what they were.

Just like with the Desmond debacle. I lost most of my interest in helping to fight fraud after that "non-issue" of authorities not helping. It seems most authorities don't care, quite honestly. Or if they do care their prosecutors don't. The whole grading hobby is sort of predicated on a trimmed card in an 8 holder. Kind of says a lot....

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Leon

Just like with the Desmond debacle. I lost most of my interest in helping to fight fraud after that "non-issue" of authorities not helping. It seems most authorities don't care, quite honestly. Or if they do care their prosecutors don't. The whole grading hobby is sort of predicated on a trimmed card in an 8 holder. Kind of says a lot....

I had a memorable conversation with one such authority about card doctoring and that very point about the Wagner was made.

[WWG]

Card has been withdrawn from HA Auction.

[oldjudge]

Nice job by Heritage!

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by oldjudge

Nice job by Heritage!

And by Rennie.

[oldjudge]

It would be nice if SGC would comment

[Leon]

Originally Posted by WWG

Card has been withdrawn from HA Auction.

And you have been suspended for bad registration information until it is rectified. Why are all of these bad registration sleuths from FL.?

[barrysloate]

I find this whole situation extraordinary. The 36 DiMaggio is just one of many thousands of altered cards that are currently slabbed, yet every time a major auction concludes we see countless price records for high end cards shattered. At what point does the hobby say enough is enough? And when do TPG's start investing in better technology so they can start ferreting out these bad cards instead of holdering them?

I understand why collectors hold on to what they have. The common mantra is "I don't actually have any of these bad cards in my collection, it's only the other guy who has the altered ones. I checked mine out carefully and they're all good." That is the ostrich with his head in the sand that has been a fixture of this hobby for as long as I can remember. But why don't collectors finally stand up and say we aren't going to buy any more of this crap until the TPG's find a better way to do this. As I said, I really find this to be amazing. If somebody else can explain this, please do.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by barrysloate

I find this whole situation extraordinary. The 36 DiMaggio is just one of many thousands of altered cards that are currently slabbed, yet every time a major auction concludes we see countless price records for high end cards shattered. At what point does the hobby say enough is enough? And when do TPG's start investing in better technology so they can start ferreting out these bad cards instead of holdering them?

I understand why collectors hold on to what they have. The common mantra is "I don't actually have any of these bad cards in my collection, it's only the other guy who has the altered ones. I checked mine out carefully and they're all good." That is the ostrich with his head in the sand that has been a fixture of this hobby for as long as I can remember. But why don't collectors finally stand up and say we aren't going to buy any more of this crap until the TPG's find a better way to do this. As I said, I really find this to be amazing. If somebody else can explain this, please do.

Stuff trumps all, Barry, you know that. These little one off fiascos will flare and die every so often and nothing will change. And the criminals know that.

[luciobar1980]

I mean to me this just means that there isn't a grading company that out there that is 100% foolproof, and that detecting trimmed cards is more difficult than we think? Which sucks. I don't really think SGC should be ashamed about this, it's just the way it is. Humans aren't perfect machines and every grading company will f up from time to time.

Think about all the times this probably happens and no one puts it together and posts about it like this on a message board.

Does this issue vary quite a bit in terms of size??

[samosa4u]

Originally Posted by luciobar1980

I mean to me this just means that there isn't a grading company that out there that is 100% foolproof, and that detecting trimmed cards is more difficult than we think? Which sucks. I don't really think SGC should be ashamed about this, it's just the way it is. Humans aren't perfect machines and every grading company will f up from time to time.

Think about all the times this probably happens and no one puts it together and posts about it like this on a message board.

I don't think you understand the severity of this. Despite seeing the before and after scans which clearly shows that the L&R borders were chopped, SGC still chose to do nothing about it. They had a chance to fix this mistake, but decided not to. This is very unprofessional and one day somebody is going to pay three million dollars for this trimmed POS.

[Lorewalker]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

I had a memorable conversation with one such authority about card doctoring and that very point about the Wagner was made.

I can see how that would discourage law enforcement from going further however it is a shame that it is not the practice of the auction houses and grading companies to reveal the names of the people who are associated with the buying, grading and consigning of cards like this. I understand why they can't but if no arrests can be made and absent transparency, this is just going to continue.

Auction houses and grading companies keep secret the identity of the guilty parties a secret. I guess as long as they get their cut they do not really care. Pretty sad.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Lorewalker

I can see how that would discourage law enforcement from going further however it is a shame that it is not the practice of the auction houses and grading companies to reveal the names of the people who are associated with the buying, grading and consigning of cards like this. I understand why they can't but if no arrests can be made and absent transparency, this is just going to continue.

Auction houses and grading companies keep secret the identity of the guilty parties a secret. I guess as long as they get their cut they do not really care. Pretty sad.

You got it my friend. We have no idea who submits the cards, or consigns them, or buys them. And nobody will say anything. All in the dark. Perfect world for card doctors.

[oldjudge]

Good job Pete. How about talking to Brian and seeing if the guy who won the card in REA is your consignor.

[Lorewalker]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

You got it my friend. We have no idea who submits the cards, or consigns them, or buys them. And nobody will say anything. All in the dark. Perfect world for card doctors.

And let's be honest, I doubt there is anything in the auction houses' contracts with consignors nor their terms for buyers, that preclude them from disclosing names. They simply have not made it a practice because it is their goodwill, which makes sense but in cases like this Joe D card, where fraud is being committed, why not put the names out there? Cannot see how that would expose them to litigation but I do see how they might lose those those people as buyers or consignors. If all houses did this these losers would have no place to hide but the houses are guilty of being greedy and someone buying a bad card is not their problem. Seems it should be their problem because they are representing the card and taking a piece of the sale. Until it is illegal to sell an altered card I guess they are not responsible.

Funny that houses have no problem threatening to out someone who does not pay THEM but not when fraud is being perpetrated on someone other than THEM.

Same is true for the grading companies who are allegedly here to protect the consumer. So why keep secret the guys whose names have to be continuing to come up as being associated with doctored cards? Faux protection. It is unreal.

I suppose if the practice became to disclose identities, John Doe would be the consignor, original buyer and submitter.

[Stampsfan]

Originally Posted by oldjudge

The hobby could be improved if auction houses worked with one another.

Yeah it's too bad more competitive businesses cannot work together. Wish the oil companies with retail stations could work together so there is less competition at the gas pumps.

Wait a minute...

Originally Posted by JeremyW

Why would you trim a great card?

Why would you grade a trimmed card?