Are the "T213-1" (1910 COUPON) cards really T206's ? ....I think so....What say you ?

[DixieBaseball]

Originally Posted by Pat R

Some of these subjects are extremely tough with other backs too.
Try and find some of these subjects with Tolstoi backs. Ted said he
searched for twelve years and never even saw a scan of Rossman with
a Tolstoi back.

Here are the combined pop reports on some of the Coupon type 1 subjects with
Tolstoi backs.

Cree - 2
Donovan - 2
Dubuc - 2
Dunn - 1
Engle - 3
Hoffman - 0
Hunter - 1
Killian - 3
Laporte - 1
Rossman - 0
Thomas - 0
Willett - 1
Wilson - 3

Dunn, Rossman and Thomas were only recently confirmed with Tolstoi
backs in the past year.

Pat - That is very interesting. What do you make of such a ridiculously low pop for those players? Tolstoi is in that middle range of tough backs which shouldn't be too difficult to find, yet these are super rare. Have you been able to see if these players were possibly "late" into production for some baseball reason? i.e. traded, called up, etc. ?! Perhaps Tolstoi added them to production late !?

[tedzan]

Jeremy

Here are 27 subjects in the 1910 COUPON set which were NOT printed with these following 350 series backs…..
CAROLINA BRIGHTS, EL PRINCIPE DE GALES, OLD MILL, POLAR BEAR. But were printed with the TOLSTOI back.

Do we have enough imagination to figure this strange incongruity, or is this a case where...."Only the Monster Knows !"

Byrne
Charles
Donovan (throwing)
Doolan (fielding)
Fletcher
Hoffman (St Louis AL)
Howell (portrait)
Huggins (portrait)
Huggins (hands at mouth)
Hunter
Killian (portrait)
Knabe
Lennox
Marquard (portrait)
McBride
McElveen
McIntyre (Detroit)
Mitchell (Cincinnati)
Mowery
Myers (bat)

Paskert
Rhoades (hands at chest)
Rossman
Schmidt (portrait)
Starr
Street (portrait)
Summers


TED Z

T206 Reference
.

[Pat R]

Originally Posted by DixieBaseball

Pat - That is very interesting. What do you make of such a ridiculously low pop for those players? Tolstoi is in that middle range of tough backs which shouldn't be too difficult to find, yet these are super rare. Have you been able to see if these players were possibly "late" into production for some baseball reason? i.e. traded, called up, etc. ?! Perhaps Tolstoi added them to production late !?

Jeremy, it's not just the players I listed that was just a sample most
of the 350 only subjects are difficult to find with a Tolstoi back here
are the combined pop reports of another group of confirmed Tolstoi's.

Anderson - 4
Bush - 0
Blackburne - 4
Cross - 4
Easterly - 1
Hoblitzel - 2
Kisinger - 1
McElveen - 3
Mowrey - 4
Oakes - 3
Ritter - 4
Smith, Heinie - 0
Zimmerman - 2

The didn't begin printing the Tolstoi backs until sometime during the 350
only series and I think it might have been towards the end of the 350
only printing as that would explain why most of them are scarce with
Tolstoi backs.

[Rich Falvo]

Pat - one of the things that surprised me the most after trying to work on a Providence master set was how tough the Tolstoi backs are for that 350 group.

[Pat R]

Originally Posted by DixieBaseball

Hey Pat - at some point in near future, I will certainly be looking into your ATC Journal info (thank you for providing-looks interesting), and this thread to review all the comments. Plausible either way I suppose, but certainly will check it out. I am to busy playing offense at the moment, to play defense --- Seriously though, I look forward to reviewing, discussing w/ you and Ted in near future. Just so frikkin busy, and I better get back to pressure washing the back deck as that is what I was suppose to be doing this morning... Meanwhile... let us be Free from Adulteration!

To keep from hi-jacking Teds other thread any further I moved this here where it's on topic. Until you get free time to look at the Journal which I think is the most important information there is in trying to date the time frame of the type 1's here's a rundown of some of the information in it.

The pages in it are from early 1909 through 1912 here's the two index pages I posted in the other thread

ATC Index Ledger page 1.jpg

ATC Index Ledger page 2.jpg

Some of the pages have examples of the cards pasted to them but the t206
pages were all removed and sold. Here's one of the pages I posted in the other
thread an American Beauty page with a Willetts pasted to it who as you know is in the t213-1 set.

ATC American Beauty Ledger page.jpg

I know your a Southern League collector so here's an Old Mill page from the journal.

In partial it reads Began packing nat'l players same as those in piedmonts
began packing Jan 8th 1910 Began shipping Jan 9th 1910

Began packing one nat'l + 1 so league pict 3/15/1910 shipping 3/17/1910
Discontinued 12/14/10

img421.jpg

If the type 1's were printed in 1910 they almost certainly should be in this journal.

Originally Posted by tedzan

Pat

If you do NOT see the stylistic similarity of the design of these 5 backs indicating that they were printed during the Summer 1910 timeline,
then you have no appreciation for the operation at American Lithographic's art department. These designs were simultaneously printed in
the Spring/Summer of 1910. The same was true with another stylistic back design during the 350-only Series (CAROLINA BRIGHTS).






Furthermore,
This information is derived from an ATC journal regarding the May 1911 DIVESTURE ACT, which broke up American Tobacco Company's
monopoly.

Liggett & Myers was given about 28 per cent of the cigarette market:

Piedmont
Fatima
American Beauty
Home Run
Imperiales
COUPON
King Bee
Fatima

P. Lorillard received 15 per cent of the nation's business:

Helmar
Egyptian Deities
Turkish Trophies
Murad
Mogul
and all straight Turkish brands

American Tobacco retained 37 per cent of the market:

Pall Mall
Sweet Caporal
Hassan
Mecca


Note that the COUPON brand is assigned to L & M.....proving to us that it was in the marketplace during 1910.
Newspaper clippings (circa 1909) exist which inform us this new ATC brand was being introduced.


THAT'S ALL FOLKS, CASE IS CLOSED !


TED Z

T206 Reference
.

Since Ted seems to be reluctant to view the journal and points to the stylistic design similarity's as one of the reasons they were printed in 1910 all the brands are on the index pages except Coupon.

ATC Index Ledger page 1 - Copy.jpg

[tedzan]

Originally Posted by Pat R

If the type 1's were printed in 1910 they almost certainly should be in this journal.


Since Ted seems to be reluctant to view the journal and points to the stylistic design similarity's as one of the reasons they were printed in 1910 all the brands are on the index pages except Coupon.

Attachment 460104

Hey Pat

Where do you come-off saying I am "RELUCTANT" to respond to this journal you posted. I already reviewed it in the other thread you posted it in.....and,
THERE'S NOTHING THERE THAT DISPELS THAT THE 1910 COUPON CARDS WERE PRINTED AND ISSUED IN 1910 ! That list is IRRELEVANT ! !

Where is a DATE on it ? Where are the other American Tobacco Co. (ATC) brands on that list ? For example....POLAR BEAR....RED CROSS (T215)...."PIRATE"...."TY COBB"

The fact that POLAR BEAR is missing on this journal list certainly indicates that this journal list would have been dated PRIOR TO THE SUMMER of 1910.

Anyhow, this list that you are "raving about" tells us NOTHING about when the "COUPON" cards were printed (or issued). ! Absolutely, nothing ! !

__________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ ___________________

Furthermore,

.


. .


Hey guys,

Those QUOTES surrounding these three Brand names are very significant. These QUOTES indicate that these are new ATC brands which had not yet received
an officially Registered TRADEMARK. Most people do not understand the importance of this, for it does INDEED set a timeline when these cards were printed
and issued.

Regarding the COUPON brand, it would be Circa Spring - Summer 1910.


TED Z

T206 Reference
.

[Pat R]

Originally Posted by tedzan

Hey Pat

Where do you come-off saying I am "RELUCTANT" to respond to this journal you posted. I already reviewed it in the other thread you posted it in.....and,
THERE'S NOTHING THERE THAT DISPELS THAT THE 1910 COUPON CARDS WERE PRINTED AND ISSUED IN 1910 ! That list is IRRELEVANT ! !

Where is a DATE on it ? Where are the other American Tobacco Co. (ATC) brands on that list ? For example....POLAR BEAR....RED CROSS (T215)...."PIRATE"...."TY COBB"

The fact that POLAR BEAR is missing on this journal list certainly indicates that this journal list would have been dated PRIOR TO THE SUMMER of 1910.

Anyhow, this list that you are "raving about" tells us NOTHING about when the "COUPON" cards were printed (or issued). ! Absolutely, nothing ! !

__________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ ___________________

Furthermore,

.


. .


Hey guys,

Those QUOTES surrounding these three Brand names are very significant. These QUOTES indicate that these are new ATC brands which had not yet received
an officially Registered TRADEMARK. Most people do not understand the importance of this, for it does INDEED set a timeline when these cards were printed
and issued.

Regarding the COUPON brand, it would be Circa Spring - Summer 1910.


TED Z

T206 Reference
.

The dates are on the pages with instructions on what to put in the packs and cartons. you need to look at the whole journal.

The journal dates are from 1909-1912 with the latest packing date of 8/12
on the Nebo brand. It is my understanding that the dates on the T215's are
approximate too and maybe the journal helps narrow the time frame down for them.

As for the Polar Bears first off that's a pouch scrap tobacco I don't know all of
the Tobacco brands on the index pages are any of the other brands pouch scrap Tobacco that had
cards inserted in them?

also several years ago when I was researching the print flaws I said the Polar
Bears didn't seem to fit in with the rest of the t206 brands.

You point out the similarity's in the Polar Bears to the Coupon perhaps the reason is they weren't printed and distributed with the other t206 brands.

Here's what I posted in 2015

Originally Posted by Pat R

Print flaws are important in the research of the printing process and they can also help spot fakes. I have been doing some limited research on a group of
T206 print flaws and I want to share what I think could/might be important
(to some people). These print flaws show that the front plates were shared
with some backs but likely not all backs within the same print groups and series, and the backs
seem to be grouped together, for instance the "murr'y flaw is found on four
different backs Lenox, Old Mill, Tolstoi, and SC 350-460 fact 30 and I have
found a couple of other flaws that are shared by Tolstoi's and Lenox.

Now the most interesting back in this research is Polar Bear, I have yet to
find any of these flaws on a PB back or a flaw on a PB (Dopner as far as I know
is only found on PB backs) has not been found on any other back.

I have stated before (and this is just my opinion) that I think the T206
printing was spread out among the several printing facility's that the American
Lithograph co. owned at the time. It just seems to make sense that a pretty
large project spread out over a fairly long period would have been done at
more than one place.

To me it is the best explanation for several things such as....

Sheet layout changes within the same series and some subjects that are more
difficult in common backs could be explained by slightly different layouts
at different facility's.

Why Demmitt and O'Hara ST Louis and the Dopner flaw are only found on PB backs and unless I'm wrong no printing flaw found on a different back is found
on a PB back. This could be explained if the Polar bears were printed by
themselves at one of the facility's and at the time they were making the
plates for that facility Demmitt and O'Hara were with ST Louis.

Now of course I know this is all speculation but I think it could be a good discussion.

[tedzan]

Pat

The journal list you are referring to (labelled Index) has 30 brands on it.

It has NO DATE identifying it....and it does NOT include the POLAR BEAR brand. The POLAR BEAR brand was a MAJOR brand,
the likes of which was printed on the backs of 250 subjects in the T206 set.

The timeline of the first series of POLAR BEAR cards has been established as beginning circa Spring -Summer 1910. Therefore,
that journal list of 30 brands that you are touting were generated prior to the Spring of 1910. Then of course it would not have
any information regarding COUPON (or RED CROSS, or PIRATE, or TY COBB SMOKING TOBACCO).


TED Z

T206 Reference
.