Are the "T213-1" (1910 COUPON) cards really T206's ? ....I think so....What say you ?

[tedzan]

Pat

The journal list you are referring to (labelled Index) has 30 brands on it.

It has NO DATE identifying it....and it does NOT include the POLAR BEAR brand. The POLAR BEAR brand was a MAJOR brand,
the likes of which was printed on the backs of 250 subjects in the T206 set.

The timeline of the first series of POLAR BEAR cards has been established as beginning circa Spring -Summer 1910. Therefore,
that journal list of 30 brands that you are touting were generated prior to the Spring of 1910. Then of course it would not have
any information regarding COUPON (or RED CROSS, or PIRATE, or TY COBB SMOKING TOBACCO).


TED Z

T206 Reference
.

[Pat R]

Originally Posted by tedzan

Pat

The journal list you are referring to (labelled Index) has 30 brands on it.

It has NO DATE identifying it....and it does NOT include the POLAR BEAR brand. The POLAR BEAR brand was a MAJOR brand,
the likes of which was printed on the backs of 250 subjects in the T206 set.

The timeline of the first series of POLAR BEAR cards has been established as beginning circa Spring -Summer 1910. Therefore,
that journal list of 30 brands that you are touting were generated prior to the Spring of 1910. Then of course it would not have
any information regarding COUPON (or RED CROSS, or PIRATE, or TY COBB SMOKING TOBACCO).


TED Z

T206 Reference
.

My god Ted who's the one making a "fool" of himself take your blinders
off and read the whole journal not just the index page or read my posts that have some of them in it.


Here I've circled the dates on a couple of them but take the time and read
the whole journal it's been available on here for years.

ATC American Beauty Ledger page - Copy.jpg

ATC Cycle Ledger page - Copy.jpg

[tedzan]

Pat

I don't see any connections between those small "piecewise" journals and the large journal (listed with the 30 brands) labelled "INDEX", which
you touted as being "evidence" for your cause. Show me how they are connected ?
So, the dates on those are irrelevant to anything we are discussing with respect to when the 1910 "COUPON" cards were printed and issued.


TED Z

T206 Reference
.

[jggames]

Just an observation from a fan of the Ledger pages. It seems to be a true index, as the page number on the American Beauty card page “95” corresponds to the American Beauty entry on the Index “95-119” but I also see a date of 1912 at the top of the second page.

[Pat R]

Originally Posted by jggames

Just an observation from a fan of the Ledger pages. It seems to be a true index, as the page number on the American Beauty card page “95” corresponds to the American Beauty entry on the Index “95-119” but I also see a date of 1912 at the top of the second page.

This is correct James when you look at the whole journal the index page is more or less in chronological order and they added a page number to the index when they changed what was inserted in packs of that particular brand. It starts with entry's from 1909 and ends in 1912. This is why in my opinion if Coupon type 1's were distributed in 1910 they should be in this journal.

The page with 1912 on it is the second index page which would be when they created that index page.

[jggames]

Originally Posted by Pat R

This is correct James when you look at the whole journal the index page is more or less in chronological order and they added a page number to the index when they changed what was inserted in packs of that particular brand. It starts with entry's from 1909 and ends in 1912. This is why in my opinion if Coupon type 1's were distributed in 1910 they should be in this journal.

The page with 1912 on it is the second index page which would be when they created that index page.

I guess what I didn’t explicitly say was that it also connects the pieces to that index page

[Pat R]

Originally Posted by Pat R

This is correct James when you look at the whole journal the index page is more or less in chronological order and they added a page number to the index when they changed what was inserted in packs of that particular brand. It starts with entry's from 1909 and ends in 1912. This is why in my opinion if Coupon type 1's were distributed in 1910 they should be in this journal.

The page with 1912 on it is the second index page which would be when they created that index page.

Sometimes we get lucky and find definitive proof of something in writing like the packing and shipping dates in the journal but most of the time
you're just putting together bits and pieces to form an opinion.

Ryan just posted his multi - overstrike back southern leaguers in another thread.
T206 Mullaney, Brown Old Mill-Multi-Ghost - Back (1).jpg

The backs are from a test print scrap, we have no way of knowing when each
back was test printed but I think it's fair to assume it was close to the same time.


The three backs on Ryan's cards are Piedmont, Old Mill and EPDG, those three backs are in a group together on the index page along with Hindu.

img399 - Copy.jpg

[Pat R]

The more meticulously I look through the journal the more things seem to come together. When I first found out about it on here I printed it out and
since then I have looked through it on several occasions when I was researching other things but over the past few day's I've been taking a much closer look at everything in it.

It's really a shame that many of the t206 pages and others like Red Sun were removed from the journal. Some of them have been sold in auction
so we have images of them but others like Sovereign, Broad Leaf and Drum as far as I know haven't.

Looking at the pages that are available explains some things and adds to a lot of what we do know.

I posted it earlier but here are a couple more things about it that I noticed.


Up until recently the southern leaguers were thought to have been printed in 1910 with the Old Mill backs but in 2018 I found this ad.
OLd Mill Ad.jpg

The August 14 1909 date in that ad coincides with the date on the ledger that says they first started packing and shipping the Old Mill southern leaguers 7/09.

The Old Mill ledger page could also explain why the "exclusive 12" subjects in the 460 only series are very tough with an old Mill back because the ledger page indicates they discontinued packing the Old Mills on 12/14/1910.

[tedzan]

Originally Posted by jggames

Just an observation from a fan of the Ledger pages. It seems to be a true index, as the page number on the American Beauty card page “95” corresponds to the American Beauty entry on the Index “95-119” but I also see a date of 1912 at the top of the second page.

Jason

Perhaps you can get an answer from Pat.....because I have asked him to explain why the POLAR BEAR brand is missing from that list of 30 brands (supposedly
reflecting "entry's from 1909 and ends in 1912").

But, Pat avoids answering that simple question.


TED Z

T206 Reference
.

[Pat R]

Originally Posted by tedzan

Jason

Perhaps you can get an answer from Pat.....because I have asked him to explain why the POLAR BEAR brand is missing from that list of 30 brands (supposedly
reflecting "entry's from 1909 and ends in 1912").

But, Pat avoids answering that simple question.


TED Z

T206 Reference
.

I posted my opinion on that in post #211 I highlighted in red for you.

[tedzan]

Originally Posted by Pat R

I posted my opinion on that in post #211 I highlighted in red for you.

"You point out the similarity's in the Polar Bears to the Coupon perhaps the reason is they weren't printed and distributed with the other t206 brands."


Pat

Sorry, but I did not get what you were driving at with that, when I first read it. And, I still don't understand what you are
alluding to regarding similarity between 1910 COUPON cards and POLAR BEAR cards (other than they are both T206's).


TED Z

T206 Reference
.