Are the "T213-1" (1910 COUPON) cards really T206's ? ....I think so....What say you ?

[Ritz Collector]

Was wondering the same thing

[tedzan]

Any given day on ebay you can dial up T213 Coupon cards, and you will typically find approx. 200 cards listed. The majority
of them will be T213-2 cards. And, on the average as many as 20 % of them will be T213-3 cards.
Very seldom will you find even one "T213-1" card listed for sale.

It's obvious to me the 1910 COUPON cards were not designed to be inserted in the standard (10-cigarette) pack of that era.
My theory is they were either......
simply handed out to customers purchasing this new ATC brand, or pasted on a 200-count cigarette cartons,, or just placed
inside one of these cartons. In any event, this Willett was most likely the latter case. As it is the best looking 1910 COUPON
card in my collection.

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Collecting these cards, I have noticed that approx. 10 % (or perhaps as much as 15 %) of them have this type of paper loss
on their backs (which most likely resulted because these cards pasted on cigarette cartons). The repetitive spot-like spoilage
on these cards is too consistent to blame it on some random cause.

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This one, though, has faint cardboard residue on it from also being pasted on a cigarette carton. Apparently, whoever removed
this card from a carton did it very, very carefully. I've seen very few 1910 COUPON cards (less than 1%) exhibiting this type of
minimal back damage.

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TED Z

T206 Reference
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[DixieBaseball]

Ted - Love the Willett, but my favorite Coupon you own is the Pink Matty. Such a beautiful card! Here are a few more SL Coupons...

[tedzan]

Jeremy

Great stuff, guy......and, do you have all 20 of the 1910 COUPON Southern Association subjects ?


I need the 1910 COUPON card to complete my run of Greminger……


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TED Z

T206 Reference
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[DixieBaseball]

Ted - I had another Greminger at one point, and traded/sold it to someone in this Net54 community but that was many years ago. This is the only one I own now and it does comprise my SL run of Coupons. Took me well over 10 years to get all 20. As I mentioned in earlier posts, the grading companies are very inconsistent on grading these puppies. I have several that are off by a grade to a grade and a half both ways.

[tedzan]

Jeremy

From our previous conversations, I figured you had all 20 of the Southern Association guys.....congratulations.

Eventually, I'll find a 1910 COUPON Greminger. I'm a patient dude, when it comes to stuff like this.

Best regards,


TED Z

T206 Reference
.

[Pat R]

Jereme, if the American Beauty checklists didn't match up with any
of the other backs in the T206 set like the Type 1's do I would agree
with you but they do and as a matter of fact they match up exactly
with several of the 350 series backs.

I also contend your minor league explanation supports excluding the
type 1's rather than including them because they would have had to
completely re-arrange at a minimum 2 or 3 sheet layouts in the
middle of printing all of the other T206 backs but if they were using
the plates/artwork after they were used on the T206's it wouldn't
interrupt the printing for the other T206 backs. This is one of the
reasons I asked where the 1910 date came from. Did they print
them right after the 350 only series was finished using the old
plates or did they have access to the plates/artwork and print
them after the printing of the 460 series concluded.


I haven't come across an ad that singles out Red Sun but here's a store
ad that lists Red Sun as one of the Liggett & Myers cigarettes they sell.

Liggett & Myers ad.jpg

[DixieBaseball]

Fair point, Pat but I would be curious what date do you think they printed them? 1912 or 1913? Not likely based off the players in the set and the look of the Coupon is just like the other 16 ATC brands. If they printed them in the 1909-11 time frame, then that would indicate they are the 17th American Lithographic ATC brand, but just printed in limited quantity and released regionally which may or may not been their full intent. I think the same reason they were printed/released in scarcity is the same reason Red Sun was printed/released in scarcity and Red Sun, we know was most likely released in early 1910 (produced in 1909/1910) with the intent to release a 2nd series at some point following that 1st series of 75 cards. With some Coupon cards having as few as 2-3 examples known, it is quite possible there could be a few yet discovered, and then perhaps proofs which might indicate more cards were going to be produced liked the Olberman T206 SL 8 proofs + Eddie Collins Proof. Why were those 9 cards not included in T206 set and why did it take 50 years for those cards to be known? Where do those fit into the T206 set? Does T206 represent 521, 524, or 530 cards to be complete? Why does the Old Mill T210 set released in 1909-10 have 114 cards? If Red Sun T211 which mirrors Old Mill T210 for 75 cards, and were to assume they were going to put 75 more cards in that 2nd series or would they just mirror the T210 set and put only 39 cards in that 2nd series ? All of these numbers are arbitrary for unknown reasons. Perhaps Coupon is the same ?! I believe Coupon was released in 1909-11 time frame and if Red Sun didn't do well and release a 2nd series in New Orleans, I believe Coupon could have been in a similar situation. New Orleans, regional brands perhaps didn't cut it against National brand cigarettes. More discovery hopefully to come!

http://t206resource.com/Olbermann%20Proofs.html

[DixieBaseball]

Originally Posted by Pat R

Jereme, if the American Beauty checklists didn't match up with any
of the other backs in the T206 set like the Type 1's do I would agree
with you but they do and as a matter of fact they match up exactly
with several of the 350 series backs.

I also contend your minor league explanation supports excluding the
type 1's rather than including them because they would have had to
completely re-arrange at a minimum 2 or 3 sheet layouts in the
middle of printing all of the other T206 backs but if they were using
the plates/artwork after they were used on the T206's it wouldn't
interrupt the printing for the other T206 backs. This is one of the
reasons I asked where the 1910 date came from. Did they print
them right after the 350 only series was finished using the old
plates or did they have access to the plates/artwork and print
them after the printing of the 460 series concluded.


I haven't come across an ad that singles out Red Sun but here's a store
ad that lists Red Sun as one of the Liggett & Myers cigarettes they sell.

Attachment 340190

This store ad is really interesting. Where did you find this information? Do you have any idea of the date of this? (I am guessing 1912-1919) Interesting that Red Sun is on the list but Coupon is not. We would need to ask Jon C. but I believe there is only one known Red Sun pack from 1910 known to exist. Also, perhaps only 1 Coupon pack from that era as well, but not sure on that...