Fake Signed T206 Cards (Too Many to List in the Title, See First Post for List)

[Orioles1954]

Originally Posted by jad22

Is that true? Since its an opinion in general some of the TPAs will disagree with each other. In this case, there is clear cut evidence that they are wrong. So are people all getting reimbursed by JSA/PSA/SGC?

No...I meant the AHs in this situation. But that's just a guess.

[packs]

I don't see how you could pursue a refund on an opinion.

If the auction description described the item as being an authentic signature as a matter of fact and not opinion, then the item was clearly not described correctly and that, in my opinion, would be grounds for a refund on the sale.

If anything I think this whole situation might have a positive impact on how descriptions for lots are written to reflect opinions for what they are. This is just a snippet from a description written by an AH for a signed T206:

Marquard has boldly signed the card on the front in blue ink, with the signature grading "9/10."

Now, that to me is saying that Marquard unquestionably signed the card. A more accurate description would say "the signature is bold and in blue ink, with the signature on the card grading "9/10".

[frankbmd]

Hey Brian, Brent, Al, Scott, Lee, Joe et al,

All future autograph auction listings should include the following verbiage:

”Presumed Authentic”

regardless of the authenticater or certification.

Problem solved. Your welcome.

[jad22]

Originally Posted by frankbmd

Hey Brian, Brent, Al, Scott, Lee, Joe et al,

All future autograph auction listings should include the following verbiage:

”Presumed Authentic”

regardless of the authenticater or certification.

Problem solved. Your welcome.

That's good. "Here is a presumably unaltered T206 Ty Cobb card that is presumably signed by Cobb".

[Exhibitman]

W/R/T refunds and who pays, last year I purchased a JSA full-certed signed card from a MEARS auction that turned out to be a pre-print. Both companies offered an immediate refund when I provided the information establishing the mistake. I am not sure which of them bore the ultimate cost of it.

It isn't that mistakes are made--they are--it is how they are handled. Whether it is a $500 error or a $9,000 error, the auctioneer should do as Brian did and the TPA should step up and make good to the auctioneer. The only one who should be out money is the TPA who made the mistake that touched off the whole chain of events. I would think that the public relations damage of JSA or SGC or PSADNA refusing to do so would cause would greatly exceed the cost of being exposed as someone who does not stand behind the work product. Not to mention the cost of being embroiled in what could be some FUGLY litigation over the snafu.

[Fred]

Originally Posted by Exhibitman

It isn't that mistakes are made--they are--it is how they are handled. Whether it is a $500 error or a $9,000 error, the auctioneer should do as Brian did and the TPA should step up and make good to the auctioneer. The only one who should be out money is the TPA who made the mistake that touched off the whole chain of events.

Could not agree more. It will make them a bit more cautious of what they're doing.

au·then·tic
/ôˈTHen(t)ik
adjective

of undisputed origin; genuine.
"the letter is now accepted as an authentic document"
synonyms: genuine, real, bona fide, true, veritable;

[Vintageclout]

Originally Posted by jad22

That's good. "Here is a presumably unaltered T206 Ty Cobb card that is presumably signed by Cobb".

Do we also start stating: “this T206 Mint 9 Bat Off Cobb is presumed to be unaltered and NOT trimmed to achieve its pinnacle grade”???? It’s NOT just autographs that require a “leap of faith”, and if collectors think it is, they are only fooling themselves. Bottom line is, like it or not, the current state of the hobby is built upon the “assumed” expertise of PSA, SGC, JSA, MEARS, etc., and their card grading, autograph and game used assessments. Until someone can do consistently better, their “opinions” (if that’s what you want to call them), will continue to be accepted by most auction houses and collectors as gospel. If we start hedging on their grading/autograph decisions, where does that leave us? I’ll tell you where...back to the pre-grading/authentication years when ramped “wild-west” fraud ignited Operation Bullpen.

[Leon]

Don't buy high grade vintage or autographs without good provenance, graded (opinionated) or not. Problem mostly solved. I have never sweat over an autograph. I have never bought one. And I only have one higher grade card and know where it came from before being graded. No doubt there are altered cards in high grade holders but at least they are real. A fake autograph just ruins whatever it is on.

Originally Posted by Vintageclout

Do we also start stating: “this T206 Mint 9 Bat Off Cobb is presumed to be unaltered and NOT trimmed to achieve its pinnacle grade”???? It’s NOT just autographs that require a “leap of faith”, and if collectors think it is, they are only fooling thrmsrlves. Bottom line is, like it or not, the current state of the hobby is built upon the “assumed” expertise of PSA, SGC, JSA, MEARS, etc., and their card grading, autograph and game used assessments. Until someone can do consistently better, their “opinions” (if that’s what you want to call them), will continue to be accepted by most auction houses and collectors as gospel. If we start hedging on their grading/autograph decisions, where does that leave us? I’ll tell you where...back to the pre-grading and authentication years where ramped “wild-west” fraud ignited Operation Bullpen.

[packs]

I don't really see the outrage over "opinions" being in the description. If you read any LOA you have you will only read an opinion. So if you accept an opinion on your LOA, then why can't you accept the word in the auction description?

[Republicaninmass]

I'd think "trimmed t206s too many to list" would be more apropos. Likely to cause too many hard feelings though, as it would upset many more members here

[RichardSimon]

Are other collectible hobbies plagued by such fraudulent behavior as this one is?
I am sure there is fraud in other hobbies but is it this widespread?
My other hobbies do not involve collecting anything, fortunately, except my airline boarding passes.

[Bigdaddy]

Originally Posted by packs

I don't see how you could pursue a refund on an opinion.

PSA - the 'A' stands for Authenticator. One of the services they provide, according to their main webpage is "Autograph Authentication"

One of the main selling points of the TPAs is to 'authenticate' a particular piece of memorabilia (card, autograph, etc) therefore increasing the value of the item. See their claims of record setting prices for items they have graded.

They are not just selling opinions. That may be what you are getting, but that is not what the TPAs are marketing.

[RedsFan1941]

whatever happened to “Never get cheated”?