Fake Signed T206 Cards (Too Many to List in the Title, See First Post for List)

[jad22]

Originally Posted by frankbmd

Hey Brian, Brent, Al, Scott, Lee, Joe et al,

All future autograph auction listings should include the following verbiage:

”Presumed Authentic”

regardless of the authenticater or certification.

Problem solved. Your welcome.

That's good. "Here is a presumably unaltered T206 Ty Cobb card that is presumably signed by Cobb".

[Exhibitman]

W/R/T refunds and who pays, last year I purchased a JSA full-certed signed card from a MEARS auction that turned out to be a pre-print. Both companies offered an immediate refund when I provided the information establishing the mistake. I am not sure which of them bore the ultimate cost of it.

It isn't that mistakes are made--they are--it is how they are handled. Whether it is a $500 error or a $9,000 error, the auctioneer should do as Brian did and the TPA should step up and make good to the auctioneer. The only one who should be out money is the TPA who made the mistake that touched off the whole chain of events. I would think that the public relations damage of JSA or SGC or PSADNA refusing to do so would cause would greatly exceed the cost of being exposed as someone who does not stand behind the work product. Not to mention the cost of being embroiled in what could be some FUGLY litigation over the snafu.

[Fred]

Originally Posted by Exhibitman

It isn't that mistakes are made--they are--it is how they are handled. Whether it is a $500 error or a $9,000 error, the auctioneer should do as Brian did and the TPA should step up and make good to the auctioneer. The only one who should be out money is the TPA who made the mistake that touched off the whole chain of events.

Could not agree more. It will make them a bit more cautious of what they're doing.

au·then·tic
/ôˈTHen(t)ik
adjective

of undisputed origin; genuine.
"the letter is now accepted as an authentic document"
synonyms: genuine, real, bona fide, true, veritable;

[Vintageclout]

Originally Posted by jad22

That's good. "Here is a presumably unaltered T206 Ty Cobb card that is presumably signed by Cobb".

Do we also start stating: “this T206 Mint 9 Bat Off Cobb is presumed to be unaltered and NOT trimmed to achieve its pinnacle grade”???? It’s NOT just autographs that require a “leap of faith”, and if collectors think it is, they are only fooling themselves. Bottom line is, like it or not, the current state of the hobby is built upon the “assumed” expertise of PSA, SGC, JSA, MEARS, etc., and their card grading, autograph and game used assessments. Until someone can do consistently better, their “opinions” (if that’s what you want to call them), will continue to be accepted by most auction houses and collectors as gospel. If we start hedging on their grading/autograph decisions, where does that leave us? I’ll tell you where...back to the pre-grading/authentication years when ramped “wild-west” fraud ignited Operation Bullpen.

[Leon]

Don't buy high grade vintage or autographs without good provenance, graded (opinionated) or not. Problem mostly solved. I have never sweat over an autograph. I have never bought one. And I only have one higher grade card and know where it came from before being graded. No doubt there are altered cards in high grade holders but at least they are real. A fake autograph just ruins whatever it is on.

Originally Posted by Vintageclout

Do we also start stating: “this T206 Mint 9 Bat Off Cobb is presumed to be unaltered and NOT trimmed to achieve its pinnacle grade”???? It’s NOT just autographs that require a “leap of faith”, and if collectors think it is, they are only fooling thrmsrlves. Bottom line is, like it or not, the current state of the hobby is built upon the “assumed” expertise of PSA, SGC, JSA, MEARS, etc., and their card grading, autograph and game used assessments. Until someone can do consistently better, their “opinions” (if that’s what you want to call them), will continue to be accepted by most auction houses and collectors as gospel. If we start hedging on their grading/autograph decisions, where does that leave us? I’ll tell you where...back to the pre-grading and authentication years where ramped “wild-west” fraud ignited Operation Bullpen.

[packs]

I don't really see the outrage over "opinions" being in the description. If you read any LOA you have you will only read an opinion. So if you accept an opinion on your LOA, then why can't you accept the word in the auction description?

[Stampsfan]

Originally Posted by packs

I don't really see the outrage over "opinions" being in the description. If you read any LOA you have you will only read an opinion. So if you accept an opinion on your LOA, then why can't you accept the word in the auction description?

They’re called LOA’s because they mean “Letter of Authenticity”. Nothing there implies or states it is an opinion.

If they were called “OOA” (Opinions on Authenticity) or “LOAO” (Letter of Authenticity Opinion) then I might lean a little more to agreeing with you.

Stating it’s your LOA and underlying in the fine print that it’s an opinion is borderline fraud.

[doug.goodman]

Originally Posted by Stampsfan

They’re called LOA’s because they mean “Letter of Authenticity”. Nothing there implies or states it is an opinion.

If they were called “OOA” (Opinions on Authenticity) or “LOAO” (Letter of Authenticity Opinion” then I might lean a little more to agreeing with you.

Stating it’s your LOA and underlying in the fine print that it’s an opinion is borderline fraud.

Hahahahahahahahahahaha.

The people who get paid for their opinions wouldn't get paid as much if they spent time underlining the part about it being an opinion.

The people who pay for opinions want to believe that the opinions they pay for are some sort of guarantee.

So they treat them as if they are.

It's not "borderline fraud", it's blatant ignorance of the facts.

You get what you pay for.

Not what you want to think you paid for.

Or maybe you don't.

Laughing out loud.

Doug

[Republicaninmass]

I'd think "trimmed t206s too many to list" would be more apropos. Likely to cause too many hard feelings though, as it would upset many more members here

[RichardSimon]

Are other collectible hobbies plagued by such fraudulent behavior as this one is?
I am sure there is fraud in other hobbies but is it this widespread?
My other hobbies do not involve collecting anything, fortunately, except my airline boarding passes.

[T206Collector]

Originally Posted by RichardSimon

Are other collectible hobbies plagued by such fraudulent behavior as this one is?

Real/fake art has it's own Netflix docu-series...

https://www.netflix.com/title/81032626

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by RichardSimon

Are other collectible hobbies plagued by such fraudulent behavior as this one is?
I am sure there is fraud in other hobbies but is it this widespread?
My other hobbies do not involve collecting anything, fortunately, except my airline boarding passes.

This is all probably chump change compared to art, antiques, stamps, coins, etc.

[steve B]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

This is all probably chump change compared to art, antiques, stamps, coins, etc.

It depends. One of the more prolific stamp fakers recently did volume, but mostly didn't get much for his stuff. I bought one, and it was a 60 cent stamp altered to make a maybe 600 dollar stamp that I "won" for about ten bucks.

Famous forgers work in some cases is itself collectible, and sometimes sells for more than the original (I don't own a Sperati or Fournier, that I know of but will eventually. )


The authentication process is probably more involved for the really expensive stuff and isn't generally done on a time schedule. I believe it's the same for art and antiques, but the money in some art is amazing. Coins I'm not so sure about, but there is a lot of well done fakery these days.

[packs]

Art has always been faked. Every year people go to museums and look at fraudulent artwork. According to this 2010 article, it's estimated that 20 % of all artwork in major British museums are fraudulent pieces.

I'm sure an expert looked at these paintings too. You can't ask for infallibility from a human being.

[jfkheat]

Originally Posted by RichardSimon

Are other collectible hobbies plagued by such fraudulent behavior as this one is?

There is a lot of fraud in the classic car/muscle car market.
James

[Bigdaddy]

Originally Posted by RichardSimon

Are other collectible hobbies plagued by such fraudulent behavior as this one is?

If money is involved, the answer is yes. And the more money, the more fraud.

[RichardSimon]

I was aware of the art, it always gets press coverage.
But do stamps and coins have as much fraud as this hobby?
Do less popular collectibles have a lot of fraud?

[bgar3]

The rare book market went thru a forgery scandal in the 1930’s when some incredible research, much like this research, discovered that a number of pamphlets thought to be first editions, were published at a later date. The forger was identified as one of the world’s greatest collectors and bibliographer, who himself authenticated the forgeries. The story is fascinating and research continues to this day. The book that first described the forgeries is An Equiry into certain Nineteenth Century Pamphlets, by John Carter and Graham Pollard.
If anyone is interested I could supply other titles. The forger was Thomas Wise.
There have been other interesting more recent examples like the Mormon and Texas history forgeries, in which a number of people were killed.

[steve B]

Originally Posted by RichardSimon

I was aware of the art, it always gets press coverage.
But do stamps and coins have as much fraud as this hobby?
Do less popular collectibles have a lot of fraud?

I suppose it depends on what you think of as both "as much" and fraud.


Stamps has plenty of low level stuff going on. altering something to appear to be something it's not is pretty easy. And doing stuff to make less saleable items saleable is even easier. And that's been going on almost as long as there's been a hobby. Sometimes it was done years ago, and that can get amusing at times.


The main area I collect is the 1873 and 1879 officials. in 1875 the POD decided to print reprints of every us stamp ever issued as part of the upcoming centennial celebrations. To prevent illegal use, they overprinted the officials with "specimen" Some were really common, some sold less than 100 copies. And for years collectors didn't think much of those overprinted stamps. The common ones often have the "Specimen" erased and a fake cancel added sometimes it's well done, sometimes they just crossed the overprint out with a pen. On ones like the 1cent executive dept its an effort to turn a stamp that might sell for $15 into one that might bring 2-400. On others it gets sort of comical... I have one of the really uncommon ones that was done to. 72 copies sold, catalog value 1200. I got it for $20 as a common used copy of the basic stamp. It's not worth 1200, but certainly more than 20 and whoever altered it in the past sort of did me a favor as I probably wouldn't own one otherwise.


Cancellations and other postal markings are faked pretty often, stamps are added to covers to represent rare uses, etc. Most aren't truly expensive, and that's because the authenticating groups take their time making a decision. And ALL the really expesnive stuff gets scrutinized very closely. Even stuff that's known to be "good" .

A few articles

http://www.rfrajola.com/opinions/klep.htm

http://www.rfrajola.com/opinions/gslc.htm


This one is a summary of a controversial group of stamps. The most recent expertizing took 5 Years and resulted in a book full of details that even most stamp collectors couldn't love.

http://www.rfrajola.com/grinnells/grinnells.htm

[BruceinGa]

Originally Posted by RichardSimon

But do stamps and coins have as much fraud as this hobby?

I remember as a kid in the early 60's hearing about tampered 1944 D Lincoln cent being altered to appear as a 1914 D. There were others but my memory, well, you know.

[ballparks]

Originally Posted by RichardSimon

Are other collectible hobbies plagued by such fraudulent behavior as this one is?
I am sure there is fraud in other hobbies but is it this widespread?
My other hobbies do not involve collecting anything, fortunately, except my airline boarding passes.

https://www.rottentomatoes.com/m/sour_grapes_2016

Amazing documentary on how the wine hobby was duped. Watch it!