Most underappreciated/undercollected players

[Prince Hal]

Allie Reynolds - Lifetime 182/107 and 48 saves. He was even better in the post season at 7/2 with a 2.79 ERA. His first 5 years were with the Indians too. He was a 6 time all-star. He threw two no hitters in one year.

[Buythatcard]

Roger Maris and Willie Mays

[Touch'EmAll]

I respectfully disagree about Ryan "not being able to hold a candle to Tom Seaver." Yes, Seaver was great. But c'mon folks, we're not talking Ted Williams vs. Harold Baines here. Seaver garnered 98.84 HOF voting percentage (#2 all time), Ryan was at 98.79% (#3 all time) - pretty close. I won't get into any records. Jeesh.

[rats60]

Originally Posted by 100backstroke

I respectfully disagree about Ryan "not being able to hold a candle to Tom Seaver." Yes, Seaver was great. But c'mon folks, we're not talking Ted Williams vs. Harold Baines here. Seaver garnered 98.84 HOF voting percentage (#2 all time), Ryan was at 98.79% (#3 all time) - pretty close. I won't get into any records. Jeesh.

I will

Career WAR
Seaver 110.1
Ryan 81.8

162 game averages
Seaver. Ryan
W/L 16-11. 14-13
% .603. .526
ERA. 2.86. 3.19
K. 190. 246
WHIP 1.121. 1.247
FIP. 3.04. 2.97
ERA+ 127. 112

Ryan has the advantage in strike outs and no hitters. Seaver has the advantage in everything else, most importantly in run prevention and value that leads to team wins. The idea that the Seaver RC PSA pop 2456 sells for less than the Ryan RC PSA pop 8531 is a joke.

[nat]

The answer is probably, like someone said upthread, a great player who isn't in the hall (yet). Or maybe a great player who played between the tobacco era and the gum era.

Under the former heading I'll nominate Bill Dahlen and Lou Whitaker. (Although Whitaker playing from the 70s to the early 90s really limits his collectability in terms of baseball cards anyone might actually want.) Under the latter heading I'll second (or third?) the nomination of Grover Cleveland Alexander. He's basically a half step ahead of Matty in terms of career production,* but not held in nearly as high regard by collectors.

*
Pete: 135 ERA+, 5190 innings, 120 WAR
Matty: 136 ERA+, 4788 innings, 104 WAR
That's a dead heat in performance and a small edge to Alexander in durability.

(I imagine that the fact that Pete's WAR advantage is larger than his IP advantage is due to better defensive players on the Giants, but I'm not going to dig into the calculations to verify that.)

[HistoricNewspapers]

I don't think it is preposterous to view Ryan in the same circle as Seaver. Seaver had the better career, but not by a ton.

If one uses a new metic such as WAR, then Ryan checks in at 20th all-time for pitchers.

If using traditional methods, Ryan is a 300 game winner and the all-time leader in strikeouts.

A big part of Ryan's drawing power is that he was still a star in his 40's. At age 40,41,42,and 43 he lead the league in strikeouts each of those years. At age 43 and age 44 he led the league in WHIP and K/IP.

In other words, Ryan was a marvel to a generation of kids that watched in in the 1960's/70's and the kids that watched him in the 1980's/90's. Most older pitchers are no longer a spectacle at the end such as Ryan was.

Add that Ryan became the poster boy for pitching mechanics at the end of his career...you have a generational icon.

And again, for the newer measurement methods he still is ranked 20th all time in WAR.

Ryan has a resume worthy of his card collecting popularity.

[jchcollins]

Originally Posted by rats60

. The idea that the Seaver RC PSA pop 2456 sells for less than the Ryan RC PSA pop 8531 is a joke.

It does? I'm asking straight-faced here, I haven't spent a ton of time researching it. All I know is that the '67 Seaver in the high numbers is an incredibly difficult (ahem, at least expensive) card to find in high grade - and one that for my own set I doubt I'll be getting even in mid-grade for quite some time. Quick look and I see a PSA 10 '67 Seaver that went for close to $25K back in 2012. The most recent PSA 9 '68 Ryan / Koosman #177 went for about $20K last week. Am I missing something? Comparable maybe, but not way out of line. Ryan is the more popular player, Seaver RC is easily I think the more difficult card. I'm not sure how comparable they are in mid-range graded.

[rats60]

Originally Posted by jchcollins

It does? I'm asking straight-faced here, I haven't spent a ton of time researching it. All I know is that the '67 Seaver in the high numbers is an incredibly difficult (ahem, at least expensive) card to find in high grade - and one that for my own set I doubt I'll be getting even in mid-grade for quite some time. Quick look and I see a PSA 10 '67 Seaver that went for close to $25K back in 2012. The most recent PSA 9 '68 Ryan / Koosman #177 went for about $20K last week. Am I missing something? Comparable maybe, but not way out of line. Ryan is the more popular player, Seaver RC is easily I think the more difficult card. I'm not sure how comparable they are in mid-range graded.

A PSA 9 Ryan did sell for 20k. The last PSA 9 Seaver sold for less than 7k. So if you think 35% is comparable then it doesn't seem out of line. However, I really don't think that a card a card with a ~30% print run should be selling at 35%, it should be selling at 3 to 4 times. And that is if they are equal players, but Ryan is not as good as Seaver.

My brother and I collected in 1967-1968. Neither of us ever got a Seaver RC. He found 1 pack of 5 67 high numbers and I never had a 67 high number until I purchased the whole series for each of us from Card Collectors Co. I had 5 Ryan Rcs and he had 10. The Ryan RC is a very common card, the Seaver is a very difficult SP high number. So, yes it is a joke that Seaver isn't worth many times the Ryan.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Moreover, most Seavers are tilted, have print bubbles, etc.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by rats60

I will

Career WAR
Seaver 110.1
Ryan 81.8

162 game averages
Seaver. Ryan
W/L 16-11. 14-13
% .603. .526
ERA. 2.86. 3.19
K. 190. 246
WHIP 1.121. 1.247
FIP. 3.04. 2.97
ERA+ 127. 112

Ryan has the advantage in strike outs and no hitters. Seaver has the advantage in everything else, most importantly in run prevention and value that leads to team wins. The idea that the Seaver RC PSA pop 2456 sells for less than the Ryan RC PSA pop 8531 is a joke.

Cy Youngs. Seaver 3 Ryan 0.
JAWS metric. Seaver 8th all time Ryan 30th.

[packs]

Even if Seaver was a better pitcher it should come as no surprise why Ryan is more popular and collected. I would think that between the two, people would be more excited to see a game Ryan pitched in his prime than Seaver. When Ryan pitched anything could happen. You could see a no-hitter, 20 K's, or 20 wild pitches. You could expect a decent game with Seaver on the mound, but what else?

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by packs

Even if Seaver was a better pitcher it should come as no surprise why Ryan is more popular and collected. I would think that between the two, people would be more excited to see a game Ryan pitched in his prime than Seaver. When Ryan pitched anything could happen. You could see a no-hitter, 20 K's, or 20 wild pitches. You could expect a decent game with Seaver on the mound, but what else?

A "decent" game? Good grief. As someone said, maybe Reggie, Tom Seaver was so good, blind people came to the park to hear him pitch. The man was an artist, the quintessential pitcher.

[gonzo]

Agree with Grover Cleveland Alexander.

I think a lot of his underappreciation in terms of collecting just comes from the fact that his career fell after the T206 issues and before the 1933 Goudey issue. Other than the 14-15 CJs and the T222 Fatima, and a few exhibits, there aren’t really many attractive cards of him from during his career. (And the M101-2 Sporting News supplement, which is probably my favorite contemporary issue of his, though not a “card”.)

[Bram99]

Originally Posted by rats60

I will

The idea that the Seaver RC PSA pop 2456 sells for less than the Ryan RC PSA pop 8531 is a joke.

This post may be obvious to many on this board, but it bears writing for those who haven't thought about what PSA populations really signal.

These arguments involving PSA populations sometimes miss a couple of important elements other than card scarcity - popularity and card value. In terms of under-appreciated things, this is something that is truly underappreciated about the PSA population numbers.

While one card may be a short print and the other one not, the relative PSA population of two cards (not total population of raw + graded) is a factor of not only the relative scarcity/supply of the card, but of other things.

The 1952 Topps #311 Mantle has about 1500 graded copies. It is a high number with lower supply than cards in the low series. The 1952 Topps #310 George Metkovich is part of the less-scarce, low number series. So there are likely more of them in the world today than the Mantle. But there are only 450 or so PSA graded copies of #310. This doesn't mean it is more scarce. It means people have submitted this card fewer times to PSA than the Mantle. Both the popularity of the player and the potential profit/gain on having a card graded drives the PSA population. So be careful in using PSA pop as a proxy for relative scarcity.


It is hard to argue from that Ryan was way more of a collectors' favorite than Seaver. Ryan had the flashier career with the strikeouts, no-hitters, being dominant into his mid-40's almost, the noogies to Ventura's head. Seaver just doesn't have those memorable events. So Ryan's RC was more desireable, which made it more valuable, which caused people to send it in for grading more frequently. While the Seaver may be more scarce in total raw + graded population, these other factors play into Ryan having a larger PSA population.

That said, my Dad was a pitcher and he watched baseball avidly. He thought that Seaver was the best of his generation.

[rats60]

Those people who have been in the hobby for a long time know that the Seaver is much rarer than Ryan. If anything the Ryan RC is under represented on the PSA site due to it being so common that kids played with them and there are a lot of them in poor grades. PSA 1 shows 174. PSA 2 347. PSA 7 1488. There are a lot more low grade Ryan's than NM ones, but they aren't worth grading.

Seaver on the other hand was issued in low numbers being a 7th series card that had limited distribution in packs. A very large percentage of these cards entered the hobby through dealers selling to collectors. A much higher percentage are in higher grades than the Ryans.

[Steve D]

Another aspect to consider in the Ryan/Seaver argument, is the effect Jerry Koosman plays. He was a pretty decent and popular pitcher himself.

Ryan has Koosman riding shotgun for him, while Seaver has someone named Bill Denehy.


Steve