Is the Ty Cobb back still the scarcest T206 back?

[The Nasty Nati]

Now I know some don't consider the Ty Cobb back to be from the T206 set, but for the sake of this thread lets say it is.

On T206 Resource, the Ty Cobb back is considered the #1 scarcest back in the T206 set. However, due to the most recent discovery of Ty Cobb backs the last couple of years, it increases the elusive back population to a total of 24 examples.

Could the Old Mill Brown back or the Lenox Brown back now top the #1 spot?
And since the Old Mill Brown back is a scrap, could the Lenox Brown be considered the #1 scarcest pack issued back?

It's tough to track down the pop reports for SGC for particular backs, but I'm wondering if anyone has been keeping track of the total pop reports of the Old Mill Brown and Lenox Brown to see which back is truly the scarcest...at least in terms of pop report (which I know isn't always accurate).

[Rhotchkiss]

I believe Brown Old Mill might be rarer, but it’s close. I believe Brown Lenox is a not-too-distant 3rd. Of the 3, give me a cobb back!

[Blunder19]

Hell yes.. I love me some cobb back..

[Rhotchkiss]

Damn Jamie, great looking back! One day.....

So you won’t trade your Cobb back for one of my Brown Old Mills??!!

[rats60]

Originally Posted by Rhotchkiss

Damn Jamie, great looking back! One day.....

So you won’t trade your Cobb back for one of my Brown Old Mills??!!

But is Cobb on the front of both cards in the proposed trade? I only want a Cobb back because Cobb is on the front. If I am paying mid-four to five or six figures for a card back, it better have a great player on the front.

[MVSNYC]

One of my closest friends just won the Cobb/Cobb in REA, I'm stoked to see it in person, hopefully within the next few weeks...Legendary card.

Jamie- amazing.

PS- I've always loved the "R" is World, on the Cobb back.

[Sean]

Originally Posted by rats60

But is Cobb on the front of both cards in the proposed trade? I only want a Cobb back because Cobb is on the front. If I am paying mid-four to five or six figures for a card back, it better have a great player on the front.

So you've ruled out ever owning a Brown Old Mill?

[Sean]

The estimates that I recall hearing were as follows:

18-20 Old Mill Brown
24 Cobb backs
25-30 Lenox Brown

Old Mill is the most rare, but as the OP pointed out, they are scrap and were not distributed in packs.
We don't know how Cobb backs were distributed. They may have been handed out as promotional items. It seems that they were not packed into Cobb tins, because they were produced in 1910. The tax stamp on Cobb tins indicated a date of 1912 as I recall, so the dates don't line up. I think that it was assumed that they were packed in the tins because some cards and a tin were found together in an old collection.
So the Lenox Brown might be the most rare T206 distributed in packs of cigarettes. But the Lenox Brown is almost certainly a mistake, making the Broadleaf 460 the rarest T206 back that was intentionally produced and distributed. For whatever that's worth.

[Rhotchkiss]

Has anyone seen a Cobb tin? Can someone post a pic if they have one?

[seablaster]

I guess the blue Old Mill Ed Walsh is "persona non grata" in these type of discussions.

[Pat R]

Originally Posted by Rhotchkiss

Has anyone seen a Cobb tin? Can someone post a pic if they have one?

https://auction.lelands.com/bids/bidplace?itemid=21942

https://bid.robertedwardauctions.com...e?itemid=21656

https://bid.robertedwardauctions.com...ce?itemid=3463

[Rhotchkiss]

Thanks Pat. Wow. I don’t normally look at/for non-cars items, but seems that a Ty Cobb tin is quite the collectible.

[rats60]

Originally Posted by Sean

So you've ruled out ever owning a Brown Old Mill?

I have ruled out ever owning a Drum unless I can find one with one of the top players on it and paying through the nose. I have gone after the Cobb/Cobb and may again in the future. My t206 collection is done right now without any of the top 5 scarce backs. I'm not interested in buying them with a common player.

[rats60]

Originally Posted by Sean

The estimates that I recall hearing were as follows:

18-20 Old Mill Brown
24 Cobb backs
25-30 Lenox Brown

Old Mill is the most rare, but as the OP pointed out, they are scrap and were not distributed in packs.
We don't know how Cobb backs were distributed. They may have been handed out as promotional items. It seems that they were not packed into Cobb tins, because they were produced in 1910. The tax stamp on Cobb tins indicated a date of 1912 as I recall, so the dates don't line up. I think that it was assumed that they were packed in the tins because some cards and a tin were found together in an old collection.
So the Lenox Brown might be the most rare T206 distributed in packs of cigarettes. But the Lenox Brown is almost certainly a mistake, making the Broadleaf 460 the rarest T206 back that was intentionally produced and distributed. For whatever that's worth.

How do we know they were produced in 1910? I have always believed that they were printed later.

[tedzan]

Originally Posted by rats60

How do we know they were produced in 1910? I have always believed that they were printed later.

Evidence of the 1910 issue date of the Ty Cobb / Ty Cobb card was noted in this Net54 thread back in 2009 (post # 89)……
http://www.net54baseball.com/showthr...bb+back&page=9


TED Z

T206 Reference
.

[rats60]

Originally Posted by tedzan

Evidence of the 1910 issue date of the Ty Cobb / Ty Cobb card was noted in this Net54 thread back in 2009 (post # 89)……
http://www.net54baseball.com/showthr...bb+back&page=9


TED Z

T206 Reference
.

That is the Ty Cobb tobacco brand. I don't see any reference to a Ty Cobb card with a Ty Cobb back advertising that brand.

[tedzan]

One of the excerpts from the Macon Weekly Telegraph (Feb 1910) states....

"TY COBB, JR. SENDS OUT CARD TO HIS ADMIRERS"

The above News clipping....and the fact that Senator Richard Russell, who collected his tobacco cards in 1909-1910,
and acquired a Ty Cobb / Ty Cobb card in his youth is sufficient evidence to me that this card was issued circa 1910.


TED Z

T206 Reference
.

[Pat R]

Originally Posted by rats60

How do we know they were produced in 1910? I have always believed that they were printed later.

While I think they could have been I haven't seen definitive proof
either. I have found several ads like this one from Jan 1910 but
none of them mention the Cobb card which seems odd.

Ty Cobb Tobacco.jpg

[tedzan]

Vintage postcard of Factory #33 where the Ty Cobb Smoking Tobacco was manufactured.






TED Z

T206 Reference
.

[rats60]

Originally Posted by tedzan

Vintage postcard of Factory #33 where the Ty Cobb Smoking Tobacco was manufactured.






TED Z

T206 Reference
.

Purchased by the American Tobacco Company in 1911.

https://www.storywoodmusic.com/ameri...ny-warehouses/

After the breakup of American Tobacco in 1911, the restructured company concentrated its tobacco manufacturing in Durham and Reidsville, N.C.; Louisville, Ky.; and Richmond, Va. The Durham facility had been built by the Duke family and included the former William T. Blackwell plant. The Reidsville plant was the former F. R. Penn Tobacco Company, which the American Tobacco Company had purchased shortly before the dissolution of the American Tobacco Trust in 1911. Charles A. Penn became a director of American Tobacco in 1911

[hpkatz26]

Actually the rarest T-206 back is the BLUE old mill back. Only 3 are known to exist. It's strange that no one except one responder noted that. Maybe this was due to the date of the initiating post. But no back collection will ever be complete without one! Happy collecting!

[luciobar1980]

No matter which one is the rarest, I'd take the Cobb back above all others any day!

[wnp22]

Originally Posted by hpkatz26

Actually the rarest T-206 back is the BLUE old mill back. Only 3 are known to exist. It's strange that no one except one responder noted that. Maybe this was due to the date of the initiating post. But no back collection will ever be complete without one! Happy collecting!

What is the deal with blue Old Mills? How did they come to be? Are they just considered scrap?

[mrreality68]

Originally Posted by luciobar1980

No matter which one is the rarest, I'd take the Cobb back above all others any day!

I am more then willing to compromise since I want to make everyone happy.

I would be happy to possess 1 of each. I make them available to view by all on this group.

[Ronnie73]

Originally Posted by seablaster

I guess the blue Old Mill Ed Walsh is "persona non grata" in these type of discussions.

Originally Posted by hpkatz26

Actually the rarest T-206 back is the BLUE old mill back. Only 3 are known to exist. It's strange that no one except one responder noted that. Maybe this was due to the date of the initiating post. But no back collection will ever be complete without one! Happy collecting!

Originally Posted by wnp22

What is the deal with blue Old Mills? How did they come to be? Are they just considered scrap?

Interestingly, when determining a rarity list of the T206 backs, only cards that were inserted into packs count in the list. So Southern League Brown Old Mills would not count because they were all hand cut and were never put into packs. Same thing for Blank Backs. The Ty Cobb back is also a difficult one to count, since there's really nothing but opinions that it is or is not a T206. I vote no, because all T206 subsets contain multiple cards. I believe at the time, it was just a promotional bonus that went with the Tin and they decided to use the Red Background Portrait of Ty Cobb which was also used in other sets. But being a T206 collector doesn't mean that I hate any of these other cards. Many of them belong right beside the T206 cards but not in the T206 cards. Cards such as the Ty Cobb Back, Red Cross, Coupon Type 1, and even the Pirate backs belong next to the T206's because they share history when they decided to use the same card fronts. There's probably a couple I missed.

So the question is, what back is the rarest? It needs to be a T206. It needs to have been inserted into the packs. Scraps don't count because they were never inserted into the packs. Same thing with hand cut cards. They are scraps. But then we get to the "Blue Old Mill". They are all T206's. They have no sign of being hand cut and look to be cards that were inserted into packs. Nobody has an issue calling the Lenox Brown and Lenox Black, individual T206 subsets. Even the Southern League Brown Old Mills are a T206 subset but everyone is aware that they were all hand cut so they fall into the scrap category but are still a welcomed T206 subset.

When the first "Blue Old Mill" was discovered and put up for auction, it was a 50/50 split that it was even real. Some thought maybe a real front was attached to a fake Blue back. Some thought it was treated with some sort of chemical that turned the black ink blue. I even wasn't sure about it. I had never seen it in person and never saw a clean scan with a closeup scan comparing it to a black ink Old Mill. I basically had to take the word of a few that saw it in person, the auction house, and the third party grader. Many were extremely skeptical because over a 100 years and this is the only one found. I totally understand. Then a couple years passed and a second one was discovered. The crazy thing was it was discovered by me, in my own collection. I wasn't looking for one. I was actually looking for a print defect on EPDG cards. But my collection is in alphabetical order so I was flipping past all the different backs until I got to a EPDG to see if it had the print defect. Nearing the end of my search, the next handful had an Old Mill back on top. It looked kinda different but it wasn't really jumping out at me. I pulled it out from the handful of cards and continued searching for EPDG's. When I was finally done with the EPDG search, I took another look at the Old Mill. I first compared it to another Old Mill and there was a difference in color. At the time, I was buying more Old Mill's than other backs. No real reason why, I just get hooked on a certain topic for a month or two and then move on to something else. So I put the odd looking Old Mill into a pile of about 30 other Old Mill's and asked non baseball card people to look at the backs and remove any that seem different in any way. I even had my own mother do this. They all pulled out the same card from the group of cards. I asked my mother why she chose that one. She said it looks more blue than any of the other cards. So at this point, I was a little more convinced that I had a Blue Old Mill but still was very far from 100 percent sure. Then I decided to put it under the USB microscope which I have only used for coins. This was the first time I ever put a baseball card under the microscope. What I saw, made me 100 percent sure I had a Blue Old Mill. I was so sure, that I decided to make a YouTube video showing everything and comparing it with a regular Black Ink Old Mill. I swapped the sides they were on. I did everything I possibly could in the video to show there was no funny business going on. Even after the video was made and uploaded, I originally thought it was Polar Bear Blue Ink but a few days later, comparing it to other cards from the same timeframe, it actually turned out to be a perfect match for Piedmont Blue. Piedmont's come in a few shades of blue but when comparing it to Piedmonts that would have been printed during the same time as the Blue Old Mill, I found a perfect match. So now I knew they were both from Print Group One and printed with Piedmont Blue Ink. I didn't need anymore convincing for myself. I felt that I took the research as far as I could and shared it to the world. Not too long after uploading my YouTube video, a third one surfaced, which is currently in the REA auction. The pictures are much better than when the Walsh was auctioned. I could at least tell it was the same shade of blue that mine was. It would be interesting if one day at a future National show, we could get all three of these cards together. And who knows, maybe by that time a fourth one could show up. I still haven't looked at any of mine and there's between 50 and 60 Old Mill's from Print Group One. So number 4 could just be sitting in a box waiting for me to search for them and closely check each one. So back to the original question. What's the rarest T206 back. At this point in time, I would have to say the Blue Old Mill. But that's just my opinion.

YouTube Video Link: https://youtu.be/p5qUHZQLeFw

[oldeboo]

Originally Posted by hpkatz26

Actually the rarest T-206 back is the BLUE old mill back. Only 3 are known to exist. It's strange that no one except one responder noted that. Maybe this was due to the date of the initiating post. But no back collection will ever be complete without one! Happy collecting!

Good luck trying to find one of those for sale!

[rats60]

Originally Posted by oldeboo

Good luck trying to find one of those for sale!

Right here

https://bid.robertedwardauctions.com...e?itemid=71529

[T205 GB]

I remember seeing the first Blue Old Mill at the 2011 National in Chicago. Man what a great National that was!! There was always a lot of skepticism in the beginning and even SGC was cautious about grading it. If I am not mistaken there may be pics of that card floating around somewhere in an SGC holder now. I took the pics originally for the board but no longer have them available or I would post them. I 100% agreed with the color and at the time it seemed impossible but I got lucky and got to take a seat at the table. Used a 10x Loupe and both a black light and led on it to see if there was any anomaly that may have been left by a chemical or uneven coloring like a color has been passed over again. Anything that could show proof it was not genuine. I found nothing questionable and even the cut showed factory edges common on the T cards from the time period. That leads to speculation that at least ONE full sheet was printed and distributed. I am glad that it was verified and slabbed but having two more come to light makes me look a tiny less crazy now. Lol.

[Ronnie73]

Originally Posted by T205 GB

I remember seeing the first Blue Old Mill at the 2011 National in Chicago. Man what a great National that was!! There was always a lot of skepticism in the beginning and even SGC was cautious about grading it. If I am not mistaken there may be pics of that card floating around somewhere in an SGC holder now. I took the pics originally for the board but no longer have them available or I would post them. I 100% agreed with the color and at the time it seemed impossible but I got lucky and got to take a seat at the table. Used a 10x Loupe and both a black light and led on it to see if there was any anomaly that may have been left by a chemical or uneven coloring like a color has been passed over again. Anything that could show proof it was not genuine. I found nothing questionable and even the cut showed factory edges common on the T cards from the time period. That leads to speculation that at least ONE full sheet was printed and distributed. I am glad that it was verified and slabbed but having two more come to light makes me look a tiny less crazy now. Lol.

Hey Andrew, When the Walsh showed up, and if I was there to see it, I probably would have been 50/50 on it being the real deal. I have some pictures of the Walsh kicking around somewhere on one of these hard drives which could be some of the pictures you took, if you ever shared them on any groups or Net54. I agree that at least one sheet made it past inspection. One thing I haven't ever mentioned was if you look at my Powell scans, you can see that certain colors were not registered correctly. Then if you look at the Elberfeld currently at auction, you can see the same amount of registration that's off. So they are likely from the same sheet. I did the same thing with all my "No Prints" and could tell there were at least 2 different sheets because I had 2 groups of cards with different registration alignments but within each group, the registration matched perfectly.

[Pat R]

Originally Posted by T205 GB

I remember seeing the first Blue Old Mill at the 2011 National in Chicago. Man what a great National that was!! There was always a lot of skepticism in the beginning and even SGC was cautious about grading it. If I am not mistaken there may be pics of that card floating around somewhere in an SGC holder now. I took the pics originally for the board but no longer have them available or I would post them. I 100% agreed with the color and at the time it seemed impossible but I got lucky and got to take a seat at the table. Used a 10x Loupe and both a black light and led on it to see if there was any anomaly that may have been left by a chemical or uneven coloring like a color has been passed over again. Anything that could show proof it was not genuine. I found nothing questionable and even the cut showed factory edges common on the T cards from the time period. That leads to speculation that at least ONE full sheet was printed and distributed. I am glad that it was verified and slabbed but having two more come to light makes me look a tiny less crazy now. Lol.

Here are the Pics you took.
Blue Old Mill.jpg

Blue Old Mill Back.jpg

[Pat R]

Originally Posted by Ronnie73

Hey Andrew, When the Walsh showed up, and if I was there to see it, I probably would have been 50/50 on it being the real deal. I have some pictures of the Walsh kicking around somewhere on one of these hard drives which could be some of the pictures you took, if you ever shared them on any groups or Net54. I agree that at least one sheet made it past inspection. One thing I haven't ever mentioned was if you look at my Powell scans, you can see that certain colors were not registered correctly. Then if you look at the Elberfeld currently at auction, you can see the same amount of registration that's off. So they are likely from the same sheet. I did the same thing with all my "No Prints" and could tell there were at least 2 different sheets because I had 2 groups of cards with different registration alignments but within each group, the registration matched perfectly.

I noticed this too Ron, when I first found out about the Elberfeld I only had a
back scan when I got the front scan I was looking for print flaws to compare
to other Elbefelds I didn't find any identifiable flaws but I did notice the registration similarities to your Powell.