Lee Smith & Harold Baines??

Peter_Spaeth · #1 12-10-2018, 12:39 PM

I know W-L isn't that meaningful for a reliever, but Smith was 71-92, that has to be the worst percentage of any HOF pitcher, no?

1952boyntoncollector · #2 12-10-2018, 05:19 PM

I got this from SB Nation

Martinez won two batting titles, led the American League in on-base percentage thrice, doubles twice, and led once each in OPS, OPS+, runs scored and RBI. He was named a Silver Slugger as the best hitter at his position seven times.

Baines won a Silver Slugger once (1989), and led the AL in slugging percentage once (1984). That is the extent of the black ink on his Baseball-Reference page.

Baines was a compiler over a long period of time, which absolutely has value, to be productive over 22 years in the majors. His hit total is relatively high (2,866), good enough to rank 46th all-time. He has 619 more hits than Martinez, which is a lot.

But to put this in perspective, Baines reached base in his career by hit, walk, or hit by pitch 3,942 times, a big number. Martinez reached base 3,619 times, closing the hit gap quite a bit. While Baines did reach base 323 more times than Martinez, he did so in 2,418 more plate appearances. Martinez would have to go 1,513 plate appearances without reaching base to lower his OBP to Baines� level; that�s nearly three full seasons� worth.

For now at least, only one of those two is a Hall of Famer. Shocking, indeed.

vintagewhitesox · #3 12-10-2018, 05:26 PM

So proud of Harold. Richly deserved.

I do find it funny how some people are shocked/outraged that he made it.
More hits than Jeter, more RBI than Schmidt, Mantle, Speaker, Hornsby, Dimaggio, Matthews, Rice.

Consistent hitter, quiet, just did his job. The anti-White Sox bias is strong still in the national media.

ullmandds · #4 12-10-2018, 05:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by vintagewhitesox

So proud of Harold. Richly deserved.

I do find it funny how some people are shocked/outraged that he made it.
More hits than Jeter, more RBI than Schmidt, Mantle, Speaker, Hornsby, Dimaggio, Matthews, Rice.

Consistent hitter, quiet, just did his job. The anti-White Sox bias is strong still in the national media.

more hits than jeter????? not quite!

Peter_Spaeth · #5 12-10-2018, 05:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by vintagewhitesox

So proud of Harold. Richly deserved.

I do find it funny how some people are shocked/outraged that he made it.
More hits than Jeter, more RBI than Schmidt, Mantle, Speaker, Hornsby, Dimaggio, Matthews, Rice.

Consistent hitter, quiet, just did his job. The anti-White Sox bias is strong still in the national media.

That really isn't a good argument. Omar Vizquel had more hits than Gehrig. So what?
Sad Sam Jones and Jerry Reuss had more wins than Pedro.
Could do that sort of comparison forever.

The JAWS metric tries to give equal weight to career stats and peak period, and again, Baines is the 74th best RFer by that metric.

riggs336 · #6 12-10-2018, 07:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

That really isn't a good argument. Omar Vizquel had more hits than Gehrig. So what?
Sad Sam Jones and Jerry Reuss had more wins than Pedro.
Could do that sort of comparison forever.

The JAWS metric tries to give equal weight to career stats and peak period, and again, Baines is the 74th best RFer by that metric.

They can put his plaque next to Freddie Lindstrom whose JAWS rating
is 74th among third basemen.

sreader3 · #7 12-10-2018, 09:27 PM

Donie Bush for Hall of Fame!

Higher career WAR (39.3) than Harold Baines (38.7) and Lee Smith (29.0).

Chuck9788 · #8 12-11-2018, 10:26 AM

Harold Baines rules! He was a great player and is a well deserved Hall of Famer. Lee Smith is a no brainer. These guys are legends.

The players and mangers you feel are more deserved will earn their keys to Cooperstown in due time.

gman · #9 12-10-2018, 09:31 PM

An interesting note is that Baines was only on the BBWAA ballot for five years before being dropped off. The highest percentage he achieved during this time was only 6.1 % (with 75% needed to be elected into the Hall). Just sayin'

sreader3 · #10 12-10-2018, 09:50 PM

I would like to know what the criteria for election are. Is it the Hall of Fame (name ID in the general public)? The Hall of Stats (some 5-year or career metric of WAR), or something else? Baines and Smith seem to fail every conceivable objective test.

Not picking on them -- many others do too. George Kell anyone?

Shoeless Moe · #11 12-10-2018, 05:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by vintagewhitesox

So proud of Harold. Richly deserved.

I do find it funny how some people are shocked/outraged that he made it.
More hits than Jeter, more RBI than Schmidt, Mantle, Speaker, Hornsby, Dimaggio, Matthews, Rice.

Consistent hitter, quiet, just did his job. The anti-White Sox bias is strong still in the national media.

Cubs/Sox fan here, and never once did I think of him or Lee Smith as HOFers during their careers or when they ended. A HOFer is a no brainer, you don't need to think on it, they just are. Both were good players, but never great.

By your reasoning you'd have Frank Tanana and Jamie Moyer in over Sandy Koufax. Longevity doesn't mean you were great.

vintagewhitesox · #12 12-10-2018, 06:01 PM

Not OVER, but along with.
It's a museum, the more the merrier.

If RBI and HRs dont matter or are not good arguments, whats the point then?

Here's a video of Harold clinching the AL West in 1983. Winning Ugly indeed.

https://youtu.be/qp2XWfMOCLY

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