In light of T206 fiasco...

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by theshleps

How many of us will be motivated to get out of the hobby?

Get out of the hobby!?!? How about get EDUCATED before getting INTO the hobby in the first place?

I realize that you personally know your autographs and are probably just panicking a little. That's understandable. But go find a scan of an AUTHENTIC scanned Fred Parent T206 (believe me, you can find one that you'll be sure of) and place it next to a fake. Then you can relax. It's the people who are letting the TPA's do their thinking for them who are getting burned. Unfortunately, that's most of the signed T206 collectors.

As an aside, now that we finally have some proof regarding T206's, are any of you ready to start talking about all those signed '33 Goudey Ruth and Gehrig cards? (Lou and Babe are still signing from the grave, so rest easy collectors who are concerned about diminishing supply).

[Leon]

I have been thinking this for quite a while. It makes me have a stomach ache and I don't even collect them. So many high end Ruth and other sigs on pre-war cards. It honestly seems kind of crazy to me as to how many we see. And when it seems crazy.......

Originally Posted by Runscott

Get out of the hobby!?!? How about get EDUCATED before getting INTO the hobby in the first place?

I realize that you personally know your autographs and are probably just panicking a little. That's understandable. But go find a scan of an AUTHENTIC scanned Fred Parent T206 (believe me, you can find one that you'll be sure of) and place it next to a fake. Then you can relax. It's the people who are letting the TPA's do their thinking for them who are getting burned. Unfortunately, that's most of the signed T206 collectors.

As an aside, now that we finally have some proof regarding T206's, are any of you ready to start talking about all those signed '33 Goudey Ruth and Gehrig cards? (Lou and Babe are still signing from the grave, so rest easy collectors who are concerned about diminishing supply).

[uniship]

To take the chance to forge a signature like Ruth on a 3k to 10k card takes some huge confidence. I tend to think those sorts of cards are far less frequently forged than the cards that are less than $50.

[T206Collector]

Originally Posted by uniship

To take the chance to forge a signature like Ruth on a 3k to 10k card takes some huge confidence. I tend to think those sorts of cards are far less frequently forged than the cards that are less than $50.

Ruth’s also draw a lot of attention — TPAs and collectors alike become critics. When $20 commons can sell for $6,000+ like in the T206 world, that’s where it really pays to forge — very low risk, extremely high reward. Us signed T206 collectors were more or less inviting the criminals in.

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by T206Collector

Ruth’s also draw a lot of attention — TPAs and collectors alike become critics. When $20 commons can sell for $6,000+ like in the T206 world, that’s where it really pays to forge — very low risk, extremely high reward. Us signed T206 collectors were more or less inviting the criminals in.

Good analysis, but the incentive on a Goudey Ruth is massive, and 33 Goudey collectors have proven to be just as inviting.

[theshleps]

The number of signed Gehrig exhibits from the 1920's hitting the market have been alarming to me or at least highly suspicious. We know some folks were getting cards signed back in the 1930s like the Goudeys with the red lines under them. Many of us back in the 1960s were sending cards TTM to be signed. When I did that I was sending 1960-1 fleer cards. Never thought of looking for GOUDEYS or T206s and as a teenager in NYC without a card store nearby (just buying packs in a nearby candy store), I would have had no idea how to even get a T206. I did send some older topps to players but nothing earlier. And when the old time dealers like Max Schrager sold HOF autographs I never saw any on vintage cards as I went to his house a number of times
It would be interesting to know how many say signed 1933 Goudey Gehrigs actually exist both real and forged. At auction when say a T206 of a tougher guy like say Baker comes up we are aware of the collectors that might bid as we are most times bidding against others on the board. Wonder what the real demand is. If Baker signed 25 T206 in 1960 with great provenance and pictures to prove it and they were all listed on ebay for $20,000 each buy it now- would they all sell? Just curious

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by theshleps

It would be interesting to know how many say signed 1933 Goudey Gehrigs actually exist both real and forged.

Such information is readily available. Just start collecting scans from old auctions or from catalogs.

We've brought this up before regarding Goudeys and... crickets. No one wants to piss off the big AH's that keep recycling these things. And most collectors are also afraid of bad-mouthing the TPA's that won't give them a re-look.

Too much money being threatened, and too many collection gaps needing filled. Black ball me, but you guys are the root of the problem.

[jad22]

Originally Posted by theshleps

The number of signed Gehrig exhibits from the 1920's hitting the market have been alarming to me or at least highly suspicious. We know some folks were getting cards signed back in the 1930s like the Goudeys with the red lines under them. Many of us back in the 1960s were sending cards TTM to be signed. When I did that I was sending 1960-1 fleer cards. Never thought of looking for GOUDEYS or T206s and as a teenager in NYC without a card store nearby (just buying packs in a nearby candy store), I would have had no idea how to even get a T206. I did send some older topps to players but nothing earlier. And when the old time dealers like Max Schrager sold HOF autographs I never saw any on vintage cards as I went to his house a number of times
It would be interesting to know how many say signed 1933 Goudey Gehrigs actually exist both real and forged. At auction when say a T206 of a tougher guy like say Baker comes up we are aware of the collectors that might bid as we are most times bidding against others on the board. Wonder what the real demand is. If Baker signed 25 T206 in 1960 with great provenance and pictures to prove it and they were all listed on ebay for $20,000 each buy it now- would they all sell? Just curious

Are any of the signed Baker t206 cards pre-stroke? Some of the 61 Fleer are.

[Leon]

Originally Posted by uniship

To take the chance to forge a signature like Ruth on a 3k to 10k card takes some huge confidence. I tend to think those sorts of cards are far less frequently forged than the cards that are less than $50.

Some Exhibit cards are 500 dollars but with a signature become 20k or more cards.....that is an issue. I still can't imagine that many high end HOF'er signing these cards back then but that is just me....

[mr2686]

This is only my opinion, but this really is only a blip compared to operation bullpen. I think the people that would be buying the signed T206's and other cards from that era will arm themselves with these new tools to find the unsigned versions of the cards in question and continue in to the marketplace at a slower, more deliberate pace. For me, this is just another nail in the coffin that has made my favorite hobby a bit less enjoyable, and when you add a lack of full time reputable dealers, sky rocking prices, newer players/hall of famers with eligible sigs, it makes me take a hard look at what I am (or want to be) collecting.

[WillowGrove]

Some great points in here. The two that I connected with are RunScott 'get educated on Parent et. al' before starting to collect and Lordstan - be a skeptic and make the autograph have to prove itself to you.

I've been collecting vintage baseball stuff for over 40 years but only got into signed cards 5 years ago when I saw a Mel Ott signed Goudey at the natty. I said to myself, in all my years of collecting I don't see many old cards with vintage signatures. So for the past five years I've been learning about and picking up signed vintage cards of HOFers.

It's been just about the last year that I thought I was seeing more signed cards than usual. I know in some thread, some of you felt that too. And specifically to me, I noticed more signed Mel Ott on Playballs. Now I may be totally wrong but they felt off to me.

I didn't bid on them.

The point I would like to make is to not be afraid to rely on your instincts. It's one of my favorite aspects of collecting. If you've done your research and something seems off to you, odds are you are right.

And when you come across signed cards from old collections where you trust (as much as one can) the provenance, that's a good time to buy.

I was lucky enough to get a few Goudey and Diamond Star cards direct from the Michigan batboy collection and from the Long Island collection at Phillip Weiss Auctions. I learned about the how the cards were acquired, trusted the sellers and was comfortable with the signatures, so I went for it. They did have COA's from the big TPAs but it was the provenance that gave me the real confidence.

So I say do your research, take in a lot of information and then trust your gut.

And man I can't wait to catch this guy.

-peter