Fake Signed T206 Cards (Too Many to List in the Title, See First Post for List)

[Tabe]

This is such an unfortunate, terrible turn of events. What a mess.

That said, like a couple earlier posters mentioned, this is one reason of the reasons I have always avoided autographed cards/balls (the other being that autographs simply don't appeal to me). The sheer number of autographed T206s has to be a major concern though.

As for trusting TPGs, I am reminded of a story I read once regarding PSA. There was some card show where PSA was setup for on-site card grading and autograph authentication. Someone at the show got an autograph from a guest at the show, walked over to PSA, and tried to get the autograph authenticated. PSA rejected it as not real.

On a lighter note: Where 3rd Bass Pete from Hauls of Shame when you need him?

On a more serious note: For all his flaws, Pete did a ton of work hammering on fakes and fraudulent autographs over the years.

[sgbernard]

Man oh man, work kept me from checking the board in a bit, and I come back to find this. Amazing detective work by the Net54 community. This is just a really awful thing for our members with these cards.

[Fred]

Any way to check the three cards in this thread? There's a McGraw (YOD = 1934) and Jennings (YOD = 1928), which would make those fairly tough signatures, let alone on T206 cards.

These are in the BST and I'm pretty sure the guy selling them is not trying to scam anyone. These are indicated to have been purchased in the 1980s.

http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=261927

[CrackaJackKid]

Has anyone reviewed the two signed cards that just sold with LOTG? A Doyle T206 and Marquard E91.

[swarmee]

Originally Posted by Tabe

On a lighter note: Where 3rd Bass Pete from Hauls of Shame when you need him?

You must have missed the post where Leon said links to his site were not allowable on Net54.

[Fred]

Originally Posted by swarmee

You must have missed the post where Leon said links to his site were not allowable on Net54.

No link in the post.

John, I'd be willing to guess that Chris didn't see the thread, it's dropped pretty quickly -

Chris, here's a link to the post.

http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=262689

[Tabe]

Originally Posted by swarmee

You must have missed the post where Leon said links to his site were not allowable on Net54.

Didn't leave a link, was just bringing a little levity.

[Marchillo]

Originally Posted by Tabe

As for trusting TPGs, I am reminded of a story I read once regarding PSA. There was some card show where PSA was setup for on-site card grading and autograph authentication. Someone at the show got an autograph from a guest at the show, walked over to PSA, and tried to get the autograph authenticated. PSA rejected it as not real.

While this goes to show the flaws in their opinion, this is actually a bit comforting (where really no comfort can come from this thread).

I get a few autos every year at the MAB show in Cooperstown. You go through the hotel, come out the back, then go to the front of the building again to get a cert from JSA. They didn’t watch the item get signed, they don’t ask for proof of the signing ticket, and they only look at the item to verify the signer and inscription. This process takes less than a minute to complete and is an excercise in book keeping rather than authentication. Whose to say that a guy signing at that show has a high price (Randy Johnson) and someone walks up with 5 decent fakes. Those are all most likely getting stickers and a cert card.

When I got my Montana Jersey signed at Shriners I brought it to PSA. They did bring the jersey out back for about 5 minutes and then it came out with a cert. I didn’t watch what they did but the process was super quick.

Point being as an autograph collector these types of things are concerning and essentially certs can be handed out on items that don’t even go through a process. Even if these processes are flawed (as we see they are).

[mordecaibrown]

[QUOTE=Marchillo;1831942]While this goes to show the flaws in their opinion, this is actually a bit comforting (where really no comfort can come from this thread).

I get a few autos every year at the MAB show in Cooperstown. You go through the hotel, come out the back, then go to the front of the building again to get a cert from JSA. They didn’t watch the item get signed, they don’t ask for proof of the signing ticket, and they only look at the item to verify the signer and inscription. This process takes less than a minute to complete and is an excercise in book keeping rather than authentication. Whose to say that a guy signing at that show has a high price (Randy Johnson) and someone walks up with 5 decent fakes. Those are all most likely getting stickers and a cert card.



I saw this exsct same thing at the exact same show in 2012 (so it’s been the process there for years) and thought the exact same thing. I decided on that day that I would only collect autographs that I received in person. I am not an autograph collector (just get a few players I wanted), so I do not study the autographs enough to provide me with the knowledge to identify fakes versus real. And I’ve

But, at this point, it appears there are a plethora of fakes “authenticated” and, I assume, these fakes are now used as exemplars. I just don’t know how anyone knows what’s real or fake at this point (obviously the “authenticators” don’t) unless you see player sign it with your eyes or have iron clad provenance. I feel like operation bullpen fell on deaf ears and the “romanticism” of owning a signed pre-war card blinded peoples rationale thought!

In reference to a few people’s comments about this not being isolated to T206s, I completely agree; however, I think it will be more difficult to pinpoint the before and after of these other series. When I go to card shows, dealers have binders of low grade common 1933 Goudey cards (perfect for this forgery scam); so I think it is less likely cards from other series will have a fingerprint copy on internet.

Lastly, I feel horrible for everyone that got burned in this scam and hope that they receive retribution (REA response speaks volumes to me on why many consider them an industry leader) and incredible work by Manny in trusting his gut when he smelled a rat!!!

@ndy k3nn3dy

[calvindog]

Presumably, hopefully, REA will be made whole by the TPA who mistakenly blessed the cards. I'm a little disappointed but of course not surprised that we've heard nothing from any of the other auction houses who sold the fake cards.

As for autographs, other than on checks or official documents I'd stay away. Problem is that we all tend to lose our heads when confronted with something we really want based on a deep-seated childhood desire. A desire that tends to cause us to ignore simple common sense. Just take a look at the BST with some sellers willing to concoct the most hilarious bullshit stories to defraud board members. If it seems ridiculous it is ridiculous. If someone claims a high graded card in some obscure holder has never been sent into PSA or SGC, he's lying. If someone is selling a seemingly pristine raw card at a high price, presume it's trimmed or altered and been rejected by PSA or SGC. If you presume the worst you'll be right 99% of the time. Sad but true.

[rainier2004]

Originally Posted by calvindog

Presumably, hopefully, REA will be made whole by the TPA who mistakenly blessed the cards. I'm a little disappointed but of course not surprised that we've heard nothing from any of the other auction houses who sold the fake cards.

As for autographs, other than on checks or official documents I'd stay away. Problem is that we all tend to lose our heads when confronted with something we really want based on a deep-seeded childhood desire. A desire that tends to cause us to ignore simple common sense. Just take a look at the BST with some sellers willing to concoct the most hilarious bullshit stories to defraud board members. If it seems ridiculous it is ridiculous. If someone claims a high graded card in some obscure holder has never been sent into PSA or SGC, he's lying. If someone is selling a seemingly pristine raw card at a high price, presume it's trimmed or altered and been rejected by PSA or SGC. If you presume the worst you'll be right 99% of the time. Sad but true.

This times a million.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Yep. Even otherwise sophisticated, intelligent, successful people seem to check all these qualities at the door when it comes to cards, autographs, memorabilia. It's the perfect recipe for fraud. It's as Paul Simon wrote -- a man hears what he wants to hear and disregards the rest.

And this phenomenon is exacerbated by TPG because the holder and the LOA just whitewash the problems and give what is -- in many cases -- false reassurance.

Since none of us are going to stop collecting no matter what scandals emerge, the only choice is to be more careful I guess, and use your common sense at all times.

[barrysloate]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Yep. Even otherwise sophisticated, intelligent, successful people seem to check all these qualities at the door when it comes to cards, autographs, memorabilia. It's the perfect recipe for fraud. It's as Paul Simon wrote -- a man hears what he wants to hear and disregards the rest.

And this phenomenon is exacerbated by TPG because the holder and the LOA just whitewash the problems and give what is -- in many cases -- false reassurance.

Since none of us are going to stop collecting no matter what scandals emerge, the only choice is to be more careful I guess, and use your common sense at all times.

+1

I think the way the hobby has evolved, too much faith has been put on what the label says. A grade, or a blessing of authenticity, is only an opinion. And because TPGs need to process material as quickly as possible to increase profits, many of the opinions are flawed and inaccurate.

But how many collectors actually assess that? If the label says it's a 9, it's taken by most as a guarantee. Look at what 9's and 10's sell for, and you know that buyers have total confidence in that label. Just the idea that all these fake signatures found their way into slabs should be a wake up call that the system is deeply flawed.

[pokerplyr80]

Is there no way to tell the difference from ink that's been on a card for 30-50 years, or more, and a card that's been signed in the last 5 or 10?

[calvindog]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Yep. Even otherwise sophisticated, intelligent, successful people seem to check all these qualities at the door when it comes to cards, autographs, memorabilia. It's the perfect recipe for fraud. It's as Paul Simon wrote -- a man hears what he wants to hear and disregards the rest.

And this phenomenon is exacerbated by TPG because the holder and the LOA just whitewash the problems and give what is -- in many cases -- false reassurance.

Since none of us are going to stop collecting no matter what scandals emerge, the only choice is to be more careful I guess, and use your common sense at all times.

Yup. The TPG gives the stamp of approval and allows people to exhale. Even when the TPG - like Spence - is shown to be a clown year after year. Collectors are so easily defrauded. As we see on the BST even morons can easily steal.