Fake Signed T206 Cards (Too Many to List in the Title, See First Post for List)

[RichardSimon]

The right thing now is for the TPA and AH to get their evidence in order and go to the FBI. My guess is that might not happen though. They will not want the publicity which that would surely engender.

[The Nasty Nati]

I think this tarnishes JSA’s reputation pretty bad since they seem the link that had originally authenticated all of these before they were sent to PSA and SGC. Not that those TPGs are off the hook either.

But this really makes you think what other autos besides t206 did JSA miss? Chances are good the forger didn’t start out forging t206 autos until a few years ago when he or she realized the prices autograph t206s were going for. I’m sure there may be hundreds if not thousands of card autographs from after the war that were forged before or during his or hers t206 forgeries. Think Clementes, Williams, Mays, Gehrig, Ruth, you name it.

To me, no era is safe. Especially if JSA clearly doesn’t do any real hard forensic work. I’m assuming they just reference a few authentic autographs in their database and compare them and give them a thumbs up. That may have been a beneficial service before the internet but nowadays you can look up any autograph online and with just a little penmanship practice pass JSA’s and the TPG test.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by RichardSimon

The right thing now is for the TPA and AH to get their evidence in order and go to the FBI. My guess is that might not happen though. They will not want the publicity which that would surely engender.

The FBI surely can investigate whether the TPA and AH go to them or not.

[chalupacollects]

Originally Posted by RichardSimon

The right thing now is for the TPA and AH to get their evidence in order and go to the FBI. My guess is that might not happen though. They will not want the publicity which that would surely engender.

They would be better off going public and marketing it as a "see, we care to help clean things up marketing campaign we've learned from this..." rather than hiding as if they were guilty of something... Take your lumps, fix the issue and improve...

[ullmandds]

Originally Posted by chalupacollects

They would be better off going public and marketing it as a "see, we care to help clean things up marketing campaign we've learned from this..." rather than hiding as if they were guilty of something... Take your lumps, fix the issue and improve...

agreed but what are the odds of that happening?

[Bpm0014]

@MyBuddyInc

That shouldn’t take more than like 5-10 minutes correct? Not being a jerk, but you providing the name is a big piece of the puzzle, and shouldn’t take long to figure out who it was that purchased these off you...

[RichardSimon]

Originally Posted by Bpm0014

@MyBuddyInc

That shouldn’t take more than like 5-10 minutes correct? Not being a jerk, but you providing the name is a big piece of the puzzle, and shouldn’t take long to figure out who it was that purchased these off you...

+++

[Peter_Spaeth]

I presume law enforcement will take an active interest in this, and I presume the AHs will cooperate with law enforcement. I don't think we need a public outing to accomplish the goal here. It obviously isn't the AHs' fault.

[sb1]

Isn't it really as simple as finding out who submitted them for grading and who consigned them to the various auctions? If it's one and the same, seems pretty open and shut case. If not, perhaps a middle man or a private sale in between(which I doubt).

Seems like a couple of phone calls to the various entities would provide the answers.

[jgmp123]

Originally Posted by sb1

Isn't it really as simple as finding out who submitted them for grading and who consigned them to the various auctions? If it's one and the same, seems pretty open and shut case. If not, perhaps a middle man or a private sale in between(which I doubt).

Seems like a couple of phone calls to the various entities would provide the answers.

Seems easy, but doubt Graders or Auction Houses will divulge that information. It's not going to be public information.

My hope is that they are already moving on that as we speak.

[sb1]

Perhaps they wouldn't release that information to the general public understandably, but might to one of the affected parties and most assuredly to legal authorities or demand letters, lest they wait for a court order or such. I can't imagine they would want to drag themselves through all that. It would be much easier to bring it all to light and start showing some signs of responsibility, which REA has by already refunding some parties.

[RichardSimon]

Originally Posted by jgmp123

Seems easy, but doubt Graders or Auction Houses will divulge that information. It's not going to be public information.

My hope is that they are already moving on that as we speak.

The AH and TPA MUST go to law enforcement. This has to be nipped now and the guilty party or parties must be prosecuted and imprisoned.

[oldjudge]

Originally Posted by sb1

Isn't it really as simple as finding out who submitted them for grading and who consigned them to the various auctions? If it's one and the same, seems pretty open and shut case. If not, perhaps a middle man or a private sale in between(which I doubt).

Seems like a couple of phone calls to the various entities would provide the answers.

+1 I'm surprised Brian Dwyer has not chimed in

[conor912]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

It obviously isn't the AHs' fault.

I agree with this, to a point. I think there is a systemic problem with blindly trusting third party grading. It's far too easy for a seller, AH or otherwise, to hide behind the fact that it was given a green light by a "professional grader/authenticator" and try to wash their hands of all liability. IMO, if you accept money for something, regardless of where you are in the chain, you need to be at least partially responsible for its legitimacy.

I think it sort has been all along anyways, but certainly will be from now, for me to just assume an auto is fake until I have been convinced otherwise, which will now be pretty much impossible since that was the whole point of third party grading to begin with.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by conor912

I agree with this, to a point. I think there is a systemic problem with blindly trusting third party grading. It's far too easy for a seller, AH or otherwise, to hide behind the fact that it was given a green light by a "professional grader/authenticator" and try to wash their hands of all liability. IMO, if you accept money for something, regardless of where you are in the chain, you need to be at least partially responsible for its legitimacy.

I think it sort has been all along anyways, but certainly will be from now, for me to just assume an auto is fake until I have been convinced otherwise, which will now be pretty much impossible since that was the whole point of third party grading to begin with.

So if I sell an expensive TPG graded card on ebay, and a year later the buyer cracks it out looking for a bump but it gets rejected, should he be able to come back to me and demand a refund?

[conor912]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

So if I sell an expensive TPG graded card on ebay, and a year later the buyer cracks it out looking for a bump but it gets rejected, should he be able to come back to me and demand a refund?

I more had autos in mind, but to your example, I'd say it depends on where the perceived value lies. Is the value in the card, or in the card in the slab? Obviously in most cases these days most of the value is in the latter. If they cracked it, then at that point they can no longer return to you the item which you sold them, which was the card in the slab - the moment they crack it out, it becomes a different product. At that point I wouldn't think they would be entitled to a refund from you and should go straight back to the TPG that originally graded it and sort it out with them.

[steve B]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

So if I sell an expensive TPG graded card on ebay, and a year later the buyer cracks it out looking for a bump but it gets rejected, should he be able to come back to me and demand a refund?

On the grade I don't think so.
If it came back as fake, I'd think they could. Sort of like how someone stuck with something stolen has to go back to the person they got it from to get their money back instead of the person who stole it.

(Of course, I could be way off base legally, you'd know better than I would. )

[Fred]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

I presume law enforcement will take an active interest in this, and I presume the AHs will cooperate with law enforcement. I don't think we need a public outing to accomplish the goal here. It obviously isn't the AHs' fault.

The public outing will occur in time. The walls should close in quickly if it's a sole perp. You have to get the feeling the asshole has probably figured out by now that their scheme is now exposed. Let's just hope that butthead doesn't screw over any more people that don't realize what's happening.

[jchcollins]

I generally don't even do pre-war, but this type of crap is precisely why I have never seriously been interested in collecting autos.

[Duluth Eskimo]

There’s just as much card doctoring with 50’s and newer cards as well.

[D. Bergin]

Originally Posted by Fred

The public outing will occur in time. The walls should close in quickly if it's a sole perp. You have to get the feeling the asshole has probably figured out by now that their scheme is now exposed. Let's just hope that butthead doesn't screw over any more people that don't realize what's happening.

....or has already bought a plane ticket to Costa Rica.

[chalupacollects]

Originally Posted by ullmandds

agreed but what are the odds of that happening?

Well guess it may depend on how it hits their bottom lines moving forward...and if the LEO's involve themselves in to the party,,,