"RESTORED" Wagner - how should we feel about this as collectors?

[mrvster]

This card is a "FRANKEN WAGNER"

restoration should be left to art .....NOT CARDS!

IN MY OPINION, THEY KILLED A BEAUTY !

once something is altered, it changes the integrity of the original card....

trimming, paper loss I can live with.....card is still original in these cases...

this card has been basically "created" and is not original.....

someone ruined a masterpiece and spent 14 k to do it!

this is insanity.....the card is WAY overpriced right now!


card in current state should be a 100 k card or under......


If I had this, I would spend multi k to see if I could get it "unrestored" although I think in this case might be impossible....


heck, while they were at it, they should have made the background pink and changed han's hairstyle

[dabigyankeeman]

I posted earlier in this thread how I hated someone restoring a card then selling it. However, last nite I was watching a Mecum auto auction on tv and I realized that I loved the restored cars they were selling and what is the difference between them and the restored baseball card.

The restored cars I love have a bunch of new parts added that look like the original, they have been re-painted, and so on. It really made me re-thing my attitude towards restoring cards. I dont think I am so negative about them anymore!!

[mrvster]

these are "cards" ....not "cars"........a huge difference!!!

1)coins are not restored or "recreated" are they(besides cleaning polishing, distorting them)....NO ONE WOULD ADD MORE GOLD , SILVER, RESTRIKE IT???

2) what about stamps???someone going to add paper and recolor the upside airplane???????

these examples would ADD MATERIAL to something that is original thus altering the integrity of the original!!! thus changing the object...

this Wagner is a RE-CREATION" and not a "RESTORATION"

flip should state "FRANKEN WAGNER RE-CREATION" and not "RESTORED"


think about this....you can only "go by the restoration report"

what if the idiot doing the restoration forgot to add something or delete something he/she didn't do or do to the card?????it is tampered with significantly enough to change this card into something other than an original WAGNER!!!

it has foreign material added to it!!!!!!!!!!(card board from another card, foreign ink that they didn't use back then)


it is ok to soak the card and remove the paper from the back and maybe dirt on it, but that would be enough!!!

this card was altered significantly enough to ruin it!!


someone ruined this card , and some poor sap is going to buy something where technically you don't really know what was done to it!! only an invoice


I don't know, I don't like "fake boobs" either....

if your thing is paying out the asshole for something someone basically re created, more power to you!

don't get me wrong, I am obsessed with owning one, if I had this one, it would drive me nuts to the point of where I would want to trim the fake ass border off!!

THIS IS INSANITY!


I would take the die cut wagner or the wagner cut in 2 before I bought a recreation.....shit, get a reproduction and cut and paste heinie wagner on the fucker

[ullmandds]

I don't like fake boobs either!!!!!! But the fact is with the internet...and globalization...demand has increased for the iconic cards of the hobby...and I believe this is only the beginning of the "restoration" of cards. I don't like it...but I'm a realist!

Originally Posted by mrvster

these are "cards" ....not "cars"........a huge difference!!!

1)coins are not restored or "recreated" are they(besides cleaning polishing, distorting them)....NO ONE WOULD ADD MORE GOLD , SILVER, RESTRIKE IT???

2) what about stamps???someone going to add paper and recolor the upside airplane???????

these examples would ADD MATERIAL to something that is original thus altering the integrity of the original!!! thus changing the object...

this Wagner is a RE-CREATION" and not a "RESTORATION"

flip should state "FRANKEN WAGNER RE-CREATION" and not "RESTORED"


think about this....you can only "go by the restoration report"

what if the idiot doing the restoration forgot to add something or delete something he/she didn't do or do to the card?????it is tampered with significantly enough to change this card into something other than an original WAGNER!!!

it has foreign material added to it!!!!!!!!!!(card board from another card, foreign ink that they didn't use back then)


it is ok to soak the card and remove the paper from the back and maybe dirt on it, but that would be enough!!!

this card was altered significantly enough to ruin it!!


someone ruined this card , and some poor sap is going to buy something where technically you don't really know what was done to it!! only an invoice


I don't know, I don't like "fake boobs" either....

if your thing is paying out the asshole for something someone basically re created, more power to you!

don't get me wrong, I am obsessed with owning one, if I had this one, it would drive me nuts to the point of where I would want to trim the fake ass border off!!

THIS IS INSANITY!


I would take the die cut wagner or the wagner cut in 2 before I bought a recreation.....shit, get a reproduction and cut and paste heinie wagner on the fucker

[rats60]

Originally Posted by ullmandds

I don't like fake boobs either!!!!!! But the fact is with the internet...and globalization...demand has increased for the iconic cards of the hobby...and I believe this is only the beginning of the "restoration" of cards. I don't like it...but I'm a realist!

So what next? Is someone going to cut a real Wagner in two and make 2 Wagners by "restoring" them? Where does it stop? Restored Wagner 10% real? 5%? 1%?

[C-mack]

Originally Posted by rats60

So what next? Is someone going to cut a real Wagner in two and make 2 Wagners by "restoring" them? Where does it stop? Restored Wagner 10% real? 5%? 1%?

I'm sure card grading companies much like comic grading companies require X amount of the original to be present for them to give it an grade with restore notations. In comics you cant just have a page of action #1 and recreate the rest and still get a grade,hell you cant even have the whole interior and fake covers and pull that off...

[mrvster]

great point!!

where does it end?????

where do we draw the line????

there is a fine line between restoration and recreation.....where do we draw it in cards????????????

the answer is-


WE DON'T


leave them original! unless a light soaking in plain water of foreign material (scrap book removal, simple dirt, ect)

[Snapolit1]

It's disclosed. That the sort of honest dialog we want as collectors. Buy it if you want a restored card.

[biggsdaddycool]

Originally Posted by rats60

So what next? Is someone going to cut a real Wagner in two and make 2 Wagners by "restoring" them? Where does it stop? Restored Wagner 10% real? 5%? 1%?

This!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Throttlesteer]

Originally Posted by biggsdaddycool

This!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

China is busy cloning them

[mrvster]

you and I and a few other "purists" not trying to label us or anyone, I think Jeff might agree and Barry ect.....

This sort of restoration should never make it into cards.......it opens the flood gates !!! this, to me, would ruin part of our hobby in a way.....

forgers and restorers will become synonamous


there is almost a beauty to cards that may have been well loved and creased and some paper loss, but those are the scars of time.....

I know beauty is in the eye of the beholder.....

hate to use the analogy, fake boobs feel "hard" when touched! nice to look at, but they are the doctors creation! that is a whole other discussion I wouldn't play with what God created!

God also created the Wagner card.....


yes, I like restored cars, especially when you are driving it for safety......an old muscle card with new suspension and brakes are a safety issue, but I still love the "herky jerky " steering of the original muscle car!!

these alterations may enhace the look of titties or handling on a car.....but when it comes to cardboard, it is just not right!!

not all change is good, especially some of the political climate now adays....


but I do know one thing, excepting recreations like this may aid in the further pollution of out hobby...


some asshole will "enhance a t206" by autographing it themselves.....soon cards will have "BUILT UP RESTORED CORNERS" OR "BEAUTIFUL NEW COLOR AND GLOSS"


and all we will have to rely on is a "restorer"

[mrvster]

and was going to start this thread, so I am glad the original poster did......I did not want to "dog" this card, or the take away the buyers thunder or the seller.......

yes, I have been searching for a Wagner my whole life(since 11 years old) and came close many years ago , but did not get one.....

and full disclosure- I would take a Wagner anyway I could....I , like many, can not afford one.......so if someone offered this too me at a cheap price, I would take it.....but not even at 10% of what it is now!!!!

this needs to be discussed, because RATS you are 100% correct....


who ever buys this.......have it cut into 24 wagners......and restore each one


each one can have a "piece" of the original....

then we can truly call it what it is and where to hobby would be going.....


to shit

[steve B]

Coins are restored or "conserved" to some extent, and it's even done by the grading companies. (Not real sure how I think about that.... )
https://news.coinupdate.com/testing-...ation-service/

Other stuff has been done for years, like filling in holes where the coin was drilled to make jewelery, or removing solder, etc. Pretty much any silver coin that looks silver has had tarnish removed.
All of which usually decrease the value except the tarnish removal, which can go either way.

Stamps are also restored. It's a bit controversial, the national collecting organization expects all restored stamps to be marked with indelible ink. At least one restorer won't do that unless it's requested. As usual, undescribed restoration is unacceptable. And even described restoration can affect value. The second item down here has a restoration and didn't sell for much compared to others.

http://stampauctionnetwork.com/y/y92368.cfm


For some items, conservation and/or restoration is appropriate. Especially deacidifying really bad paper that's in poor condition and will eventually destroy itself. Most strip cards would be good candidates for that.


I collect bicycles, and have "restored" some. Not total restorations as we see with cars, although that's also done.
Here are a couple examples. None of what was done can't be reversed with an hour or so of work.

1920's motorpacing bike. As found, apparently converted to a bike for getting around or for warmups after a pretty serious crash.



And after locating the right size front wheel, chainring, type of handlebars, and a few other parts.




Second, a bike used to win a gold medal in team pursuit at the Pan-Am games in 1983. As found.




And after locating or making a bunch of special parts that aren't available.



Obviously, neither is 100% original, but the pros swapped out parts for nearly every race. And neither was even close to original as found.
When I showed pictures of the 1983 bike to the guy who originally built it I told him I didn't do a good enough job on the front hub as it really wasn't all that close to what I'd seen in pictures. He told me not to worry, making a hub wasn't easy, and that there were probably only a handful of people who would know the hub wasn't quite right and that I would be the only one who cared. Also, that they had experimented with a number of hubs and other parts, and that at least one set looked nearly identical to what I'd made.

Restoration is always a bit tricky, how far to take things, and which things to change. With paper stuff at least to me it's more about preservation, cleaning, deacidifying (actually not needed for T206s)

I'd also prefer the un-restored card, but it's not for everyone.

Originally Posted by mrvster

these are "cards" ....not "cars"........a huge difference!!!

1)coins are not restored or "recreated" are they(besides cleaning polishing, distorting them)....NO ONE WOULD ADD MORE GOLD , SILVER, RESTRIKE IT???

2) what about stamps???someone going to add paper and recolor the upside airplane???????

these examples would ADD MATERIAL to something that is original thus altering the integrity of the original!!! thus changing the object...

this Wagner is a RE-CREATION" and not a "RESTORATION"

flip should state "FRANKEN WAGNER RE-CREATION" and not "RESTORED"


think about this....you can only "go by the restoration report"

what if the idiot doing the restoration forgot to add something or delete something he/she didn't do or do to the card?????it is tampered with significantly enough to change this card into something other than an original WAGNER!!!

it has foreign material added to it!!!!!!!!!!(card board from another card, foreign ink that they didn't use back then)


it is ok to soak the card and remove the paper from the back and maybe dirt on it, but that would be enough!!!

this card was altered significantly enough to ruin it!!


someone ruined this card , and some poor sap is going to buy something where technically you don't really know what was done to it!! only an invoice


I don't know, I don't like "fake boobs" either....

if your thing is paying out the asshole for something someone basically re created, more power to you!

don't get me wrong, I am obsessed with owning one, if I had this one, it would drive me nuts to the point of where I would want to trim the fake ass border off!!

THIS IS INSANITY!


I would take the die cut wagner or the wagner cut in 2 before I bought a recreation.....shit, get a reproduction and cut and paste heinie wagner on the fucker

[mrvster]

great job on the bikes! you even took the wrong parts and put the right ones on it

[steve B]

Originally Posted by mrvster

great job on the bikes! you even took the wrong parts and put the right ones on it

Thanks!


I'd planned on doing an actual restoration on the motorpacing bike, new paint, new chrome,... Way beyond my budget.

It has a bad dent in the back, so I knew it had been crashed. When I was rebuilding it, I had the fork out and thought it was plugged with dirt or maybe a wood dowel. Nope, it had cracked nearly all the way across, been plugged across the crack with a pressed in steel rod that was pinned in place. I really had to look for the pins. Beautiful repair, done whenever it was crashed, probably in the 1930's. I just couldn't restore it after finding that.


I generally don't call them restored, as I don't touch the original paint. I usually go with "reconstructed" since very few of the parts are original.


Now the really old hydraulic jack I did that was basically encased in a ball of dirt when I got it... yeah, that's restored. Amazingly, the original leather seals were still good.