Joe Mauer announces retirement: HOF? Make Your Case:

[packs]

Originally Posted by nolemmings

Posada finished fourth that year in BA, so Ordonez was not his only "bad luck". Ordonez is also a lifetime .300 hitter, making his 2007 season not so inexplicable. What is far more inexplicable is Posada's .338 average--the only season he topped even .290 and 65 points higher than his lifetime BA. Had anyone else finished second to him that year, they would have a far better argument for bad luck. In contrast, Mauer hitting anywhere over .300 is pretty "explicable".

Hold yourself to your own standards though. Ordonez hit 43 points higher than he'd ever hit before that year too. And answer the question: if Posada lucks out on a batting title in 2007, is he a HOFer?

[nolemmings]

Originally Posted by packs

Hold yourself to your own standards though. Ordonez hit 43 points higher than he'd ever hit before that year too. And answer the question: if Posada lucks out on a batting title in 2007, is he a HOFer?

The question is pointless, because he was nowhere near the batting title. He finished fourth. Shave another twenty points off of Mags' BA and he still finished ahead of Posada's one-year wonder. And did I mention, that would still leave Posada fourth, and more than ten points behind #2 Ichiro.

So to flip the question, if Mauer leapfrogs over not three players (like Posada) but one in 2013 and two in 2010, then he has five batting titles. Would that be enough for you to consider him a HOFer?

Despite what my posts might suggest, I do not like even somewhat dissing Jorge Posada, who was one of my favorite players for the greatest sports franchise in the USA. But he isn't even the best Yankee catcher not in the HOF-- that would be the Captain--and an argument can be made that he was no better than Ellie Howard either, who won an MVP and who could play the position. Without even crunching other catcher careers, it is easy to say Posada was not as good as Ted Simmons, and really was not better than Lance Parrish. So no, he is not a HOFer.

[packs]

I guess the issue here is that I don't see so much separation between the HOF cases for Mauer and Posada. They were both able to do unique things with their bats at the position. So, if you think Mauer winning batting titles makes him a HOF catcher, I'd also call the best offensive catcher of his era (Posada) a HOFer too. The only catchers with bats to match were Pudge and Piazza, both known cheaters.

I only brought up 2007 because Posada put up a high average as a catcher and didn't win. But even if he did I don't think that makes him more of a HOFer than he already was. Whereas you might say "no one has done this before" in terms of Mauer's batting titles, I would say "no one hit like" in terms of Posada's bat.

[nolemmings]

Originally Posted by packs

Whereas you might say "no one has done this before" in terms of Mauer's batting titles, I would say "no one hit like" in terms of Posada's bat.

Huh? Look at Lance Parrish's numbers, as but one example. A few more RBI than Posada and nearly 50 more HR, playing fewer seasons. More recently, Brian McCann's numbers are going to end up around the same as Posada. The words "no one hit like Posada" are pretty laughable.

Jorge finished with top-ten numbers in OB% OPS+, Doubles and BB. He had 4 seasons among the leaders in OB%, never higher than third. Mauer had 7 such seasons, twice leading the league. Posada had a 6th and 10th place finish in OPS+. Mauer had 4 top-ten finishes, including first place. Jorge finished in the top-ten in walks three times--same as Mauer. So even these more non-traditional categories--the only ones where Posada's name appears, do not show him to be all that remarkable.

[packs]

Is it laughable? Parish's career overlapped with Posada's for exactly 1 game. McCann's career began while Posada was 33 years old. I don't see what either has to do with Posada's reign as the best hitting catcher in his league (minus a cheating Pudge). There aren't too many players who were the premiere offensive player at their position for a decade that aren't in the HOF. Posada fits that bill. Between 1998 and 2007, who was better?

[nolemmings]

Oh, I misunderstood your position. You're using what I call the Bill Freehan argument; i.e., I was the best catcher during the ten years I pick out and at a time when the league was either down at my position or there were a few guys with good years but nothing as consistent as me, never mind that my seasonal or "era" numbers never approach anything noteworthy. You added a twist, claiming he's not even the best unless you throw out cheaters. Got it.

But are you saying that Mauer doing what no AL catcher ever did, thrice, is essentially no better than how Posada was the most consistent hitter at his position over a specific ten-year period (leaving aside one other cheater and the fact that the last three years of that span both Mauer and VMart were better hitters and that even Jason Varitek put up similar numbers as Jorge over another three year or so stretch). I don't think so. But hey, you've inspired me to take another look at my Bill Freehan cards, who BTW, was also a better catcher than Posada.

[packs]

Originally Posted by nolemmings

Oh, I misunderstood your position. You're using what I call the Bill Freehan argument; i.e., I was the best catcher during the ten years I pick out and at a time when the league was either down at my position or there were a few guys with good years but nothing as consistent as me, never mind that my seasonal or "era" numbers never approach anything noteworthy. You added a twist, claiming he's not even the best unless you throw out cheaters. Got it.

But are you saying that Mauer doing what no AL catcher ever did, thrice, is essentially no better than how Posada was the most consistent hitter at his position over a specific ten-year period (leaving aside one other cheater and the fact that the last three years of that span both Mauer and VMart were better hitters and that even Jason Varitek put up similar numbers as Jorge over another three year or so stretch). I don't think so. But hey, you've inspired me to take another look at my Bill Freehan cards, who BTW, was also a better catcher than Posada.

Can a person help when they're alive? Are you of the opinion that a guy cheating to play well and a guy playing well naturally are on equal footing? Is a decade not enough time to show you're better than the people around you?

[howard38]

Originally Posted by packs

I guess the issue here is that I don't see so much separation between the HOF cases for Mauer and Posada. They were both able to do unique things with their bats at the position. So, if you think Mauer winning batting titles makes him a HOF catcher, I'd also call the best offensive catcher of his era (Posada) a HOFer too. The only catchers with bats to match were Pudge and Piazza, both known cheaters.

I only brought up 2007 because Posada put up a high average as a catcher and didn't win. But even if he did I don't think that makes him more of a HOFer than he already was. Whereas you might say "no one has done this before" in terms of Mauer's batting titles, I would say "no one hit like" in terms of Posada's bat.

There is no need to bring up Pudge's "cheating". Posada was the better hitter anyway w/an enormous fifty point edge in OPS.

[packs]

He has a higher OPS than Freehan, Howard and Munson too.

[nolemmings]

Originally Posted by howard38

There is no need to bring up Pudge's "cheating". Posada was the better hitter anyway w/an enormous fifty point edge in OPS.

If you honestly believe Jorge Posada was a better hitter than Ivan Rodriguez, I would simply ask: When's the last time you changed the bong water?

[howard38]

Originally Posted by nolemmings

If you honestly believe Jorge Posada was a better hitter than Ivan Rodriguez, I would simply ask: When's the last time you changed the bong water?

Never. I was a bambu guy in my smoking days.

[dgo71]

I'm just wondering when it became "known" that Piazza was a user. Only thing I ever heard was some beat writer saying he had back acne once. Did he fail a test or get implicated in a Mitchell Report-esque list that I'm unaware of?