Joe Mauer announces retirement: HOF? Make Your Case:

[packs]

I think there is room for saying some people do have bad luck sometimes. Posada hit 338 in 2007 but he happened to do that while Magglio Ordonez inexplicably hit 363. If Posada won that title, would he be a HOFer?

[nolemmings]

Originally Posted by packs

I think there is room for saying some people do have bad luck sometimes. Posada hit 338 in 2007 but he happened to do that while Magglio Ordonez inexplicably hit 363. If Posada won that title, would he be a HOFer?

Posada finished fourth that year in BA, so Ordonez was not his only "bad luck". Ordonez is also a lifetime .300 hitter, making his 2007 season not so inexplicable. What is far more inexplicable is Posada's .338 average--the only season he topped even .290 and 65 points higher than his lifetime BA. Had anyone else finished second to him that year, they would have a far better argument for bad luck. In contrast, Mauer hitting anywhere over .300 is pretty "explicable".

[packs]

Originally Posted by nolemmings

Posada finished fourth that year in BA, so Ordonez was not his only "bad luck". Ordonez is also a lifetime .300 hitter, making his 2007 season not so inexplicable. What is far more inexplicable is Posada's .338 average--the only season he topped even .290 and 65 points higher than his lifetime BA. Had anyone else finished second to him that year, they would have a far better argument for bad luck. In contrast, Mauer hitting anywhere over .300 is pretty "explicable".

Hold yourself to your own standards though. Ordonez hit 43 points higher than he'd ever hit before that year too. And answer the question: if Posada lucks out on a batting title in 2007, is he a HOFer?

[nolemmings]

Originally Posted by packs

Hold yourself to your own standards though. Ordonez hit 43 points higher than he'd ever hit before that year too. And answer the question: if Posada lucks out on a batting title in 2007, is he a HOFer?

The question is pointless, because he was nowhere near the batting title. He finished fourth. Shave another twenty points off of Mags' BA and he still finished ahead of Posada's one-year wonder. And did I mention, that would still leave Posada fourth, and more than ten points behind #2 Ichiro.

So to flip the question, if Mauer leapfrogs over not three players (like Posada) but one in 2013 and two in 2010, then he has five batting titles. Would that be enough for you to consider him a HOFer?

Despite what my posts might suggest, I do not like even somewhat dissing Jorge Posada, who was one of my favorite players for the greatest sports franchise in the USA. But he isn't even the best Yankee catcher not in the HOF-- that would be the Captain--and an argument can be made that he was no better than Ellie Howard either, who won an MVP and who could play the position. Without even crunching other catcher careers, it is easy to say Posada was not as good as Ted Simmons, and really was not better than Lance Parrish. So no, he is not a HOFer.

[packs]

I guess the issue here is that I don't see so much separation between the HOF cases for Mauer and Posada. They were both able to do unique things with their bats at the position. So, if you think Mauer winning batting titles makes him a HOF catcher, I'd also call the best offensive catcher of his era (Posada) a HOFer too. The only catchers with bats to match were Pudge and Piazza, both known cheaters.

I only brought up 2007 because Posada put up a high average as a catcher and didn't win. But even if he did I don't think that makes him more of a HOFer than he already was. Whereas you might say "no one has done this before" in terms of Mauer's batting titles, I would say "no one hit like" in terms of Posada's bat.

[nolemmings]

Originally Posted by packs

Whereas you might say "no one has done this before" in terms of Mauer's batting titles, I would say "no one hit like" in terms of Posada's bat.

Huh? Look at Lance Parrish's numbers, as but one example. A few more RBI than Posada and nearly 50 more HR, playing fewer seasons. More recently, Brian McCann's numbers are going to end up around the same as Posada. The words "no one hit like Posada" are pretty laughable.

Jorge finished with top-ten numbers in OB% OPS+, Doubles and BB. He had 4 seasons among the leaders in OB%, never higher than third. Mauer had 7 such seasons, twice leading the league. Posada had a 6th and 10th place finish in OPS+. Mauer had 4 top-ten finishes, including first place. Jorge finished in the top-ten in walks three times--same as Mauer. So even these more non-traditional categories--the only ones where Posada's name appears, do not show him to be all that remarkable.

[packs]

Is it laughable? Parish's career overlapped with Posada's for exactly 1 game. McCann's career began while Posada was 33 years old. I don't see what either has to do with Posada's reign as the best hitting catcher in his league (minus a cheating Pudge). There aren't too many players who were the premiere offensive player at their position for a decade that aren't in the HOF. Posada fits that bill. Between 1998 and 2007, who was better?

[howard38]

Originally Posted by packs

I guess the issue here is that I don't see so much separation between the HOF cases for Mauer and Posada. They were both able to do unique things with their bats at the position. So, if you think Mauer winning batting titles makes him a HOF catcher, I'd also call the best offensive catcher of his era (Posada) a HOFer too. The only catchers with bats to match were Pudge and Piazza, both known cheaters.

I only brought up 2007 because Posada put up a high average as a catcher and didn't win. But even if he did I don't think that makes him more of a HOFer than he already was. Whereas you might say "no one has done this before" in terms of Mauer's batting titles, I would say "no one hit like" in terms of Posada's bat.

There is no need to bring up Pudge's "cheating". Posada was the better hitter anyway w/an enormous fifty point edge in OPS.

[packs]

He has a higher OPS than Freehan, Howard and Munson too.

[nolemmings]

Originally Posted by howard38

There is no need to bring up Pudge's "cheating". Posada was the better hitter anyway w/an enormous fifty point edge in OPS.

If you honestly believe Jorge Posada was a better hitter than Ivan Rodriguez, I would simply ask: When's the last time you changed the bong water?

[the 'stache]

Originally Posted by packs

I think there is room for saying some people do have bad luck sometimes. Posada hit 338 in 2007 but he happened to do that while Magglio Ordonez inexplicably hit 363. If Posada won that title, would he be a HOFer?

Nope.

Cecil Cooper hit .352 in 1980. Normally, that's a good bet to win the batting title. Unfortunately for him, George Brett decided to hit .390.