Were Group 1 Subjects Printed With EPDG Before PD 350 ?

[tedzan]

Pat

Here is are the Tom Jones cards from my sets.. The PIEDMONT 350 has the "white mark", obviously the other two cards do not.

My SWEET CAP, Factory #30 set is in the safety deposit box; therefore, I cannot at this time display its Tom Jones card.







TED Z

T206 Reference
.

[Pat R]

Originally Posted by tedzan

Pat

Here is are the Tom Jones cards from my sets.. The PIEDMONT 350 has the "white mark", obviously the other two cards do not.

My SWEET CAP, Factory #30 set is in the safety deposit box; therefore, I cannot at this time display its Tom Jones card.







TED Z

T206 Reference
.

Hi Ted welcome back I hope you had a good time at the shore last weekend.

Interesting Jones that's the first PD350 that I've seen that shares the same
flaw as a PD150 or EPDG.

Based on the research I've done on all of the flaws this is an educated guess on
a possible timeline of the EPDG and Old Mill's in relation to the PD150 and 350's
from print group 1 There is evidence that the PD150's were printed in 3 or 4
different stages and I used four on this chart.

EPDG and Old Mill Chart.jpg

[Brian Weisner]

Hey Pat,
Here are a few Jones Piedmont 350's....






Be well Brian

[Luke]

Pat and Ted, are you sure that Jones P350 actually has the white marks? There is a lot of damage in the area and if you look at the back of the card, you can see that something punched completely through the card, resulting in at least some paper loss. I can't tell for sure if those spots are paper loss or a print mark. We would need a high res scan to make a determination I think.

[Pat R]

Originally Posted by Luke

Pat and Ted, are you sure that Jones P350 actually has the white marks? There is a lot of damage in the area and if you look at the back of the card, you can see that something punched completely through the card, resulting in at least some paper loss. I can't tell for sure if those spots are paper loss or a print mark. We would need a high res scan to make a determination I think.

Hey Luke,

I did see the Damage in that area on the front and back and I think
the one closest to his hat and part of another one is definitely from the damage
but it does look like the rest are in the same spot as the print defects
on the other Jones examples but as you say I would need bigger scans to be sure.


I think the areas marked in black are from the damage and the marks circled in red are the matching print defects. The mark that's circled in yellow is
a different print defect or more damage.

Ted's Jones.jpg

[Luke]

Nice work. I think I see it too.

[Pat R]

Originally Posted by Brian Weisner

Hey Pat,
Here are a few Jones Piedmont 350's....






Be well Brian

Thanks Brian, you're T206 collection is amazing just based on the
ones I've seen.

[Pat R]

I think Ted's PD350 Jones is important piece of the puzzle.

It eliminates the only explanation I can think of that the
EPDG's weren't printed before PD350's that the PD350's
were printed using different plates than the PD150 and EPDG's.
but with the same mark on a PD150,PD350 and EPDG we can
rule that out. So a flaw would be found on a slightly smaller
% PD350 vs EPDG for the elite eleven and would be very
low % for a non elite eleven subject.

It also provides what I think is a pretty solid theory for the
mystery in the scarcity of the elite eleven with PD350 backs.

Ted's Jones is the first PD350 print flaw I've seen on any 350
back the theory I have is that ALC used pre-printed 150 sheets
while they were re-doing the plates for the 350 backs.

This theory is supported by the numbers I have for the print flaws.
If the EPDG printing began at the tail end of the PD150 the
printing flaws would be found at a higher % on EPDG
vs PD150 which they are. They would also be found at a slightly
higher % EPDG vs PD350 with the elite eleven and a very low %
for the non elite eleven subjects.


If they did use pre-printed sheets and they omitted the elite eleven
on the redone 350 sheets whether it was intentional or accidental it
would account for the scarcity of the elite eleven PD350's and they
would be a little less scarce with EPDG's because some of them
would have come from the tail end PD150 printing.


Bill Graham a print group subject 2 has a flaw similar to Jones
and the EPDG vs PD350 numbers are what I would expect
if the EPDG's were printed after or around the same time as the PD350's.

The numbers I have on the Graham flaw are

PD350 18 out of 260 with the flaw
EPDG 2 out of 18 with the flaw

Graham EPDG-1.jpg

Graham PD350-18-260 EPDG 2-18.jpg

[mybuddyinc]

Pat,

Once again, some unreal work. I really think to hit the nail on the head with your most recent theory.

You beat me to a "photoshop" of the P350 Jones. At first I thought it was paper damage, but the "dots" do match up. Especially the top one, which has same vertical and horizontal placement .....

zxzjones1c2.jpg

Great, Scott

[alywa]

I have nothing to add except to express my awe and delight in all of your dedication and knowledge. I’ll resume lurking again