|
Were Group 1 Subjects Printed With EPDG Before PD 350 ?
5 Attachment(s)
Based on changes made in print group 1 there is evidence that the PD150's were printed several different times through out the group 1 printing. There are also noticeable differences between some of the 150 and 350 group 1 printings that indicate there were changes made before they were printed with the 350 backs. I'm not sure if it has been established when the EPDG backs were printed for the group 1 subjects but this Frank Owen print defect might be evidence that they were printed before any of the other 350's.
There is a dark spot on his sleeve that I found on twelve different examples 9 are PD 150's one is a PD? and 2 out of 4 different EPDG's have this defect. Attachment 250765 Attachment 250766 Attachment 250767 Attachment 250768 I think this Owen was probably on a sheet that was printed during the last PD150 printing. It's possible that there are 350 examples besides EPDG but I didn't find any. Here's the breakdown. approximately 345 total (around 10 were actually scans of Owen Wilson) PD = 197 SC =118 Sov150 = 16 OM = 4 EPDG = 4 PD150 = 9 out of 132 plus 1 PD? with no back scan EPDG = 2 - 4 PD350 = 0 - 24 SC 150/649 0 - 21 SC 150/25 0 - 9 SC 150/30 0 - 14 SC 350/30 0 -7 SC 350/25 0 - 3 Sov150 0 - 16 OM 0 - 4 I didn't go through and break down the backs that weren't listed or didn't have scans but all of the examples that had the spot were PD 150's or EPDG with the exception of one Piedmont that didn't have a back scan. Attachment 250777 |
Yet another great post Pat, thanks!
I assume that EPDG was printed before P350 and SC350 backs based on the Elite 11 subjects. A guy like Tom Jones is not a tough EPDG, but is very tough in P350. It seems likely that those players were printed normally with EPDG backs, and then pulled from production later, during the P350 print run. |
Very nice catch Pat.
Another interesting thing is that it looks like the Pi50 has a solid dot while the EPDG has a ring of color. The scans aren't good enough to figure out which might have been earlier (If it's a mistake being corrected or progressive damage.) Do you have any of the actual cards? The card with the crumpled nail always has an indent from the nail itself, and I would hazard a wild guess that the circle is the head of a nail that was working its way loose. If there's an indent then that's the likely explanation. I think the P150's were at least three different print runs with slightly redone art between them. Three for sure, and maybe a fourth. I'm not sure that differences will be found for all the cards, so perhaps run 1 was done three times, run 2 only twice and run 3 only once. The 350's as far as I can figure were a totally new thing and the art was slightly redone for at least some of the subjects if not all of them. I think we'll eventually see some really tough cards that I might technically class as wrong backs - cards with the 150 art but 350 backs. |
8 Attachment(s)
Quote:
The Piedmont I posted is mine I don't think there's an indentation but I'll take a closer look at it. One of the EPDG's has the solid dot while the other has the ring and there's also varying examples with the PD150's. My thought was that it was related to how much ink was in that area. As you point out there might be a very small % of PD 350's with this mark that came from the run that produced the tough 350's that Luke is talking about like Lundgen. Here's scans of the remaining 8 PD150's I found. As you can see the spot is very faint on the last two. Attachment 250844Attachment 250845 Attachment 250846Attachment 250847 Attachment 250848Attachment 250849 Attachment 250850Attachment 250851 |
Those are really interesting. Especially the last two.
Usually a ring shaped defect is a fisheye, but it's usually a dark center with a light ring around it. The last two, especially the larger scan are like that, but the others are either the solid spot or the dark ring. I suspect what's there is a drop of one of the platemaking chemicals that got there while the plate was being laid out. So the full spots are the earliest ones, the dark ring ones printed later after the original spot had a chance to wear, and the last two with light colored rings are actually an attempt at correcting the dark ring by stoning it off the plate. Basically erasing it with a limestone stick. It could also be plate damage and/or a nailhead sticking up from the impression cylinder. Steve B |
Here's another Owen oddity. A recurring blue spot about in the center of the green area below his arm.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/1909-T206-Fr...0AAOSwal5YF5yP http://www.ebay.com/itm/1909-T206-Fr...AAAOSwKOJYF5wl Steve B |
Sc150?
3 Attachment(s)
Could be a stretch but it appears as though there's a slight/light circle on his sleeve here as well???
|
3 Attachment(s)
Steve,
I took a closer look at my Owen. The cards not in great shape but I don't feel or see any indentation. The spot on the front is about at the upper right hand tip of the U in quality. Attachment 251241 Attachment 251242 Attachment 251243 |
Ok, so probably not a loose nail.
Steve B |
2 Attachment(s)
Quote:
where it was speculated that the printing of the group 1 (150/350) EPDG subjects might have begun during the 150 series printing. If it could be established (highlighted in red) that this is the reason for the differences in the dark spot on the sleeve the two different variations in the EPDG examples could prove that they were. Steve, If you had high resolution scans of two or all three different degrees of that spot could you tell if they were the result of plate wear ? On a comparative note the Group 2 (350) only Tolstoi's have a similar pattern when you look at the numbers. Most of the group 2 350 only subjects are tough and some of them are extremely tough with a Tolstoi back. There are 314 different subjects that are considered to be possible with the Tolstoi back. There are 65 subjects that are unconfirmed and all of them are print group 2 subjects. One explanation for this could be that the printing of the Tolstoi backs didn't start until later in the print group 2 printing. I just started researching a group of three print group 2 subjects and when I get the numbers together I will post them here. Here are the different examples so far. The fifth one from the left and the first one on the bottom left are the EPDG's the rest are all PD150's. Attachment 290434 also all of them have this spot that is missing Yellow. Attachment 290435 |
High res scans would tell me a lot.
Sometimes wear is hard to tell because of how variable the inking levels were. I could probably tell if the last version was an attempted repair. Someday I'll have to draw some pics explaining wear and inking to show how similar they can be. (And impression pressure, and the wetting of the stone/plate and ....... Steve B |
I only have the full version but here's one that is either the very beginning or
after it was fixed if it was. http://www.ebay.com/itm/1909-T206-Fr...IAAOSwH4NZgqXQ And another full version http://www.ebay.com/itm/T206-Frank-O...UAAOSwfVpYujDz |
I'm almost certain that's not a repair. The screening is far too even and matches up perfectly.
Repair on the plate would be by stoning off the big spot, then redrawing the dots either by hand, or by laying down another piece of transfer. It's incredibly hard to do that and get it looking exactly right. As an aside, the one from Deans has a transfer laydown problem on the frame at the upper left. The transfers were made by printing with very thick tarlike ink onto basically tissue paper, then laying that on the stone in the right spot with some solvent. When it was good and stuck down water was used to remove the tissue. Some times the tissue would tear, and that is probably the cause. Depending on how common the spot is, it could have been on the master stone, either early and later fixed by remaking the master, or more likely later when a bit of something got on the stone Comparing the cards on Ebay, there are a couple 350's with decent scans http://www.ebay.com/itm/T206-Owen-/3...QAAOSwDrlZfjUb http://www.ebay.com/itm/1909-T206-Fr...EAAOSw9fNZgleV Both are screened differently from all the 150's I looked at, it's more noticeable in the face. A few things I haven't quite figured out on it. The shape is interesting, being an irregular octagon. That's odd as I can't think of a way that shape was created. It's too uneven to be a nut or bolt head, and probably too uneven to be from a bit of scrap paper from an octagonal hole punch. There's also a missing halftone dot just under the lower left of the bog dot. That could be missing, or not picked up because of whatever caused the spot, or just another bit that didn't transfer properly. Steve B |
14 Attachment(s)
I finally did a little more research on some of the print flaws/defects
that I have been tracking and they have me leaning more towards the EPDG printing for the 150/350 series starting at the tail end of the 150 series and I'm also starting to wonder if there were any leftover 150 fronts used for the 350 series. I know it would be a small % of leftovers but I haven't found any of these Flaws/defects (0-657) on a 350 back. These are all card target sales that were listed under the specific back and I didn't try to track re-sales on the larger number sales like the PD150's which on average are probably around 15%. Attachment 292145 Attachment 292146Attachment 292147 Attachment 292148 Attachment 292149 Attachment 292150Attachment 292151 Attachment 292152 Attachment 292153 Attachment 292154Attachment 292159 Attachment 292156 Attachment 292157Attachment 292158 |
11 Attachment(s)
|
7 Attachment(s)
|
4 Attachment(s)
Last one
Attachment 292222Attachment 292224Attachment 292228 I thought I found a PD 350 Wilhem with this flaw but the seller definitely had the wrong back scan on this one Attachment 292225 |
Quote:
So based on your results, when you say that you are leaning towards EPDG's printed early 350/late 150, is that based on the Owens alone? I ask because in the samples you have referenced, the Owens is the only flaw that is shared on an EPDG example. Just wanting to clarify. Thanks |
1 Attachment(s)
It may have been in your count, as I purchased it off eBay in the last month, but I have a Pastorius PD350, which does not have the - next to the B on his cap.
|
Quote:
With the print flaws it's kind of based on just the Owen. Of the flaws I posted Davis, Tenney and McGraw are not confirmed EPDG's and Konetchy and Pastorius are confirmed but questionable. Both of the EPDG flaws are found on Owen but it's still 2-29 EPDG's so if some of the 350's were printed using front plates from the 150 series I would expect at least a few examples out of the 657 from 350 series with some of these flaws. The other thing as Luke pointed out is on average the close to equal numbers of EPDG to PD 350 for the elite 11. I can't see why they would pull them from the Piedmont 350 printing but not the EPDG so to me the most logical reason for them being close in numbers is the EPDG printing started during end of the 150 series and they were pulled around the same time at the beginning of the 350 series printing and the Owen with the same flaw indicates the 150 plates were used for at least some of the EPDG's. |
1 Attachment(s)
Here's another EPDG Owen with the spot on his sleeve.
Attachment 306093 This one puts the number of EPDG subjects with the spot at 3 out 5 and Scott has a new PD150 with the spot up on ebay now that puts the number of PD150's with the spot at 14 https://www.ebay.com/itm/T206-Owen-F...4AAOSwZrhah06B but I still haven't found any PD350's or any other 350 backs with this spot as a matter of fact I still haven't found any of the variations that are found on the 150 subjects on any 350 backs. There have been discussions before about the EPDG and Old Mill printing timeline for the 150 series and from the research I've done I think they might have been done in this order 150 series with EPDG backs 150 series with PD350 backs 150 series with Old Mill backs 350 series with PD350 backs 350 series with EPDG backs 350 series with Old Mill backs |
3 Attachment(s)
Just picked up the one on the left from Scott (thanks Scott).
Attachment 308746 Attachment 308747 Attachment 308748 |
5 Attachment(s)
I found some more evidence that Group 1 (150/350) subjects might
have been printed with EPDG before any 350 backs were printed and the Old mills were only printed during the 350 series printing. There are several L.Tannehills that have this red mark in the upper left corner. Attachment 327338 I haven't found or heard of any that are on a 150 back but they are found on PD350 Attachment 327340 SC350/25 Attachment 327341 SC350/30 Attachment 327342 and I recently came across this Old Mill with the red mark Attachment 327343 1 out of the 4 Old mills I found have it but 0 of the 12 EPDG's had it. I think this could be important information to the timeline of the back printing of print group 1 as it has been a common theory that the EPDG and Old Mills were printed around the same time during the 350 series printing. |
Pat,
As always, great, fascinating work !!! I just checked. I have a L. Tannehill with EPDG. Very unfortunately, it is miss cut to top (and has wear), so there is not enough border to see if there is a red mark or not.... :( I do agree with your theory that EPDGs were printed earlier. Look forward to future findings, Scott |
2 Attachment(s)
Good stuff Pat! Here's another Tannehill OM.
|
2 Attachment(s)
I think when you take all the info into consideration, the only conclusion that makes sense is for EPDG to be either the first of the "350" backs, or the last of the 150s.
The Elite 11 guys shed a lot of light on it. Take Tom Jones for example. It seems that he was printed for the entire EPDG print run (because he is as plentiful as any 150-350 Series pose with EPDG back), but then he was pulled early in the P350 print run. The logical conclusion there is that either the EPDG print run was finished before the P350 print run started, or at least part of the EPDG print run had be run to completion. Another bit of evidence is that as of now, I have never seen a 150-350 Series EPDG with either "dark ink" or the "washed out" look that some P350, Sov350, SC350, and OMs have. I have no doubt EPDGs were printed before any other 350 backs. My theory on 150-350 Old Mills is that they were printed in at least two different runs. There are some poses that can only be found with a clear, precisely registered image (like the 150s), and others that can only be found with a washed out image (like some 350s). This leads me to believe that the two sets of poses were printed at different times. Although, it could just be one long print run where the first set of sheets came out looking crisp like the 150s, and the quality deteriorated as they ran off the subsequent sheets. In the examples below, Schlei has "dark ink" and Overall is "washed out". You won't find any EPDG that has either characteristic. |
Excuse me as I have disagree with you guys. Empirical evidence indicates that PIEDMONT 350 printing preceded EPDG printing regarding the Elite 11 subjects.
As I have noted several instances in other threads: To date, the sole source of Elite 11 cards has been from the Atlanta, Georgia area. At least 4 original T206 collections from that area have provided Elite 11 cards. I have personally acquired 2 groups of Elite 11 cards from sources in Atlanta. And, to date, no other location has been the source of these rare cards. Furthermore, the well known Russell Tobacco card collection (on display at Univ. of Georgia library) is the first known source of the Elite 11 cards. Plus...... the Joe Doyle N Y Nat'l card. http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...lenatl.bmp.jpg The Joe Doyle N Y Nat'l card exists ONLY with the PIEDMONT 350 back. In fact several of the known 9 examples of this card have been found in original collections emanating from Georgia. Given that the fact that Russell's collection did not have a single EPDG version of the Elite 11 subjects, I cannot accept your argument that EPDG printing preceded the PIEDMONT 350 print run. TED Z T206 Reference . |
keep up the good work pat and luke. great stuff.
|
Quote:
on what I'm proposing in this thread that print group 1 subjects might have been printed with EPDG backs before they were printed with PD350 backs. Doyle is a print group 3 subject and I certainly think he was printed with a PD350 back before he was printed with an EPDG back. |
Quote:
Pat With all due respect......we have discussed this before in another thread. The Joe Doyle card was initially printed early in the 350-only Series print run. The Joe Doyle N Y Nat'l card in Senator Russell's T206 collection in Georgia proves this fact. His collection does not have a corrected Joe Doyle card. Subsequently, when ALC printed the SOVEREIGN 350 (apple green) cards, Joe Doyle was included in this group of 66 cards. However, he retired during that period and was not continued into the 350-460 Series. T206resource is mis-leading the hobby by stating Joe Doyle was printed in "print group 3". But, if you choose to believe that, that's your prerogative. It's obvious to me that I cannot convince you of this matter. Take care, TED Z T206 Reference . |
Quote:
The Joe Doyle card doesn't relate to what's being discussed in this thread and I only mentioned it because you brought it up and I completely disagree with this statement. If he was printed early in the 350 only series he would have a Forrest Green Sovereign back like the rest of the 350 only subjects not Apple green. The thread is open to debate so I will ask you a few questions. Haven't you stated previously that senator Russell pulled the cards from packs of Piedmont and Old Mills which were the two brands that he smoked? If this is true I wouldn't expect him to have any of the "elite eleven" with EPDG backs or any other subjects with EPDG backs. If you disagree with the possibility of the 150/350 subjects being printed with EPDG's before PD350 what's your explanation for the print defect on Frank Owen that's found on several 150 backs and also on EPDG backs but no 350 backs or the mark on Tannehill that's found on several 350 backs but no 150 or EPDG backs? |
Quote:
ALC selected the Joe Doyle card and the other 65 subjects which were printed with the SOVEREIGN 350 (apple green) backs just prior to the print runs of the AMERICAN BEAUTY 350 with frame cards (circa Summer 1910). ALC planned on continuing to print these subjects into their 460 Series. However, Joe Doyle was sold to Cinci on May 31, 1910. So, his card was eliminated. The 350 Series (forest green) SOVEREIGN 350 cards were printed prior to the press runs of the apple green cards. Quote:
Yes, the greater majority of cards in Russell's collection of T206's are PIEDMONT. And, there are about a half a dozen EPDG cards in it. I have to stop here, as we are going to the Jersey shore for the Holiday weekend. Have a happy and safe Labor Day weekend. TED Z T206 Reference . |
7 Attachment(s)
Here's an "elite eleven" example that has the same pattern.
Some Lindaman examples have a spot that looks like he's wearing an earing all of these examples also have a pink patch in the yellow background. Attachment 327693 They are found on PD150 and EPDG backs but none of the PD350's I found have these marks. Attachment 327694Attachment 327695 Attachment 327696Attachment 327697 Attachment 327698 Attachment 327699 |
Hey Pat,
As usual, great work. Here are a few more Lindaman EPDG's, one with the dot and one without. I've also added two more dot less 350's to your group. https://photos.imageevent.com/cardsa...e%20_4924_.jpghttps://photos.imageevent.com/cardsa...e%20_4926_.jpg https://photos.imageevent.com/cardsa...e%20_4923_.jpghttps://photos.imageevent.com/cardsa...e%20_4925_.jpg https://photos.imageevent.com/cardsa...e%20_4919_.jpghttps://photos.imageevent.com/cardsa...e%20_4921_.jpg https://photos.imageevent.com/cardsa...e%20_4920_.jpghttps://photos.imageevent.com/cardsa...e%20_4922_.jpg Hope you are well Brian |
Quote:
Thanks for posting your Lindaman's. Nice looking cards and tough combos especially the PD350's. I already counted your EPDG with the spot and it's on 25% of the EPDG's that I found scans of so far. |
6 Attachment(s)
Here's another "elite eleven" subject.
Attachment 328053 PD150 Attachment 328054 Attachment 328055 EPDG Attachment 328056 Attachment 328057 Attachment 328058 1 PD350 |
Pat
Here is are the Tom Jones cards from my sets.. The PIEDMONT 350 has the "white mark", obviously the other two cards do not. My SWEET CAP, Factory #30 set is in the safety deposit box; therefore, I cannot at this time display its Tom Jones card. http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...0xP350xSov.jpg http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...0xP350xSov.jpg TED Z T206 Reference . |
1 Attachment(s)
Quote:
Interesting Jones that's the first PD350 that I've seen that shares the same flaw as a PD150 or EPDG. Based on the research I've done on all of the flaws this is an educated guess on a possible timeline of the EPDG and Old Mill's in relation to the PD150 and 350's from print group 1 There is evidence that the PD150's were printed in 3 or 4 different stages and I used four on this chart. Attachment 328150 |
Hey Pat,
Here are a few Jones Piedmont 350's.... https://photos.imageevent.com/cardsa...e%20_2356_.jpghttps://photos.imageevent.com/cardsa...e%20_2357_.jpg https://photos.imageevent.com/cardsa...e%20_1768_.jpghttps://photos.imageevent.com/cardsa...e%20_1770_.jpg Be well Brian |
Pat and Ted, are you sure that Jones P350 actually has the white marks? There is a lot of damage in the area and if you look at the back of the card, you can see that something punched completely through the card, resulting in at least some paper loss. I can't tell for sure if those spots are paper loss or a print mark. We would need a high res scan to make a determination I think.
|
1 Attachment(s)
Quote:
I did see the Damage in that area on the front and back and I think the one closest to his hat and part of another one is definitely from the damage but it does look like the rest are in the same spot as the print defects on the other Jones examples but as you say I would need bigger scans to be sure. I think the areas marked in black are from the damage and the marks circled in red are the matching print defects. The mark that's circled in yellow is a different print defect or more damage. Attachment 328327 |
Nice work. I think I see it too.
|
Quote:
ones I've seen. |
2 Attachment(s)
I think Ted's PD350 Jones is important piece of the puzzle.
It eliminates the only explanation I can think of that the EPDG's weren't printed before PD350's that the PD350's were printed using different plates than the PD150 and EPDG's. but with the same mark on a PD150,PD350 and EPDG we can rule that out. So a flaw would be found on a slightly smaller % PD350 vs EPDG for the elite eleven and would be very low % for a non elite eleven subject. It also provides what I think is a pretty solid theory for the mystery in the scarcity of the elite eleven with PD350 backs. Ted's Jones is the first PD350 print flaw I've seen on any 350 back the theory I have is that ALC used pre-printed 150 sheets while they were re-doing the plates for the 350 backs. This theory is supported by the numbers I have for the print flaws. If the EPDG printing began at the tail end of the PD150 the printing flaws would be found at a higher % on EPDG vs PD150 which they are. They would also be found at a slightly higher % EPDG vs PD350 with the elite eleven and a very low % for the non elite eleven subjects. If they did use pre-printed sheets and they omitted the elite eleven on the redone 350 sheets whether it was intentional or accidental it would account for the scarcity of the elite eleven PD350's and they would be a little less scarce with EPDG's because some of them would have come from the tail end PD150 printing. Bill Graham a print group subject 2 has a flaw similar to Jones and the EPDG vs PD350 numbers are what I would expect if the EPDG's were printed after or around the same time as the PD350's. The numbers I have on the Graham flaw are PD350 18 out of 260 with the flaw EPDG 2 out of 18 with the flaw Attachment 328374 Attachment 328375 |
1 Attachment(s)
Pat,
Once again, some unreal work. I really think to hit the nail on the head with your most recent theory. You beat me to a "photoshop" of the P350 Jones. At first I thought it was paper damage, but the "dots" do match up. Especially the top one, which has same vertical and horizontal placement ..... Attachment 328382 Great, Scott :rolleyes: |
I have nothing to add except to express my awe and delight in all of your dedication and knowledge. I’ll resume lurking again :)
|
Scott and alywa, thank you for the much appreciated compliments.
There are bits and pieces of evidence hidden within the set that can help answer questions we have. We just need to sift through it and sort them out and that's one of the things I enjoy about the set. |
3 Attachment(s)
Updating the Owen numbers another PD150 with the flaw surfaced and
an EPDG without it sold on ebay. The number of PD150's with the flaw is 15 and the EPDG's are 3 out of 6. The new PD150 is the lighter version. Attachment 329933Attachment 329934 Attachment 329935 |
2 Attachment(s)
Great work! I was going through some boxes tonight and found this which may be of interest. I have owned it many years, so I doubt it is in anyone's count.
|
| All times are GMT -6. The time now is 01:12 PM. |