Applying today's societal lens against the HOFers of yesterday

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by barrysloate

Would you prefer the "Attila the Hun School of Arts and Sciences?"

No, but I wouldn't want to rename every school and building and street and city and memorial named after Washington and Jefferson either because they held slaves, or do some other 1984ish thing in the name of political correctness.

[barrysloate]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

No, but I wouldn't want to rename every school and building and street and city and memorial named after Washington and Jefferson either because they held slaves, or do some other 1984ish thing in the name of political correctness.

Well political correctness is one of the hot button issues today, but we won't debate it here.

[gawaintheknight]

I don't think there are many people proposing renaming all the Washington and Jefferson stuff. However, some people feel it accomplishes a great deal to remove e.g. "Silent Sam" from a university campus - particularly the African-American students on that campus. Why should they listen to someone telling them that they're wrong and they shouldn't have a problem with walking every day past a statue that celebrates their subjugation and was designed to reinforce it?

If earlier generations had the right to put up the monuments, why doesn't the current generation have the right to take them down? If earlier generations had the right to name things, why can't the current generation rename them?

Ted Clayton

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

No, but I wouldn't want to rename every school and building and street and city and memorial named after Washington and Jefferson either because they held slaves, or do some other 1984ish thing in the name of political correctness.

[Klrdds]

Without getting political but paraphrasing something that recently I have told my son... As we judge the past and try to erase and / or change it for good or bad how will future generations view us and our actions in 25-50 -100 years ?
It is impossible to totally understand the past especially the complex personalities of ball players in relation to society for example when we didn't live it. Especially the era from 1880s - 1950s.

[Peter_Spaeth]

So I should just go out and topple whatever statue offends me without going through the proper process? I'm Jewish, will you support me in eradicating Mercedes Benzes from the country? Daimler-Benz made a fortune producing armaments for the Third Reich, after all.

[barrysloate]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

So I should just go out and topple whatever statue offends me without going through the proper process? I'm Jewish, will you support me in eradicating Mercedes Benzes from the country? Daimler-Benz made a fortune producing armaments for the Third Reich, after all.

Sure, why not.

[Dewey]

The question is if it will impact collecting. It impacts my collecting.

I collect Jackie Robinson and wouldn't collect Cap Anson. That doesn't make me soft or overly-sensitive or "pc" or in need of a safe space. Though I appreciate gentleness, sensitivity, political right-mindedness, and safety for those under threat. It just means I know my convictions and I know what I want to spend money on to reflect those convictions on display in my home. If the majority collect like me in the future, so be it; if not, so be it. But with a younger (than me) generation raised with social entrepreneurship as a norm, don't be surprised if we see social collecting as well.

[Throttlesteer]

Guys, I know this is a sensitive subject and should have known that it would take a bit of a turn. I appreciate that it's stayed civil, but am still interested in your thoughts about the original question. I realize humans are flawed and many historical figures on all sides of the aisle have dark history.

I do agree, it's hard to judge Cobb or Cap Anson using today's standards. Although some were more outspoken than others, racism was still a widely-accepted behavior well past the turn of the century. Keep in mind, Birth of a Nation was the most prominent movie of the time Cobb, WaJo, Collins, etc...were playing. It was a socially-accepted behavior, even though we can look back on it and judge it otherwise. I completely agree with Klrdds; People 50-100 years from now will probably apply similar judgement to the socially-accepted norms of today and think we're a bunch of idiots or Neanderthals.

I will continue to collect guys like Cobb, Anson, and Speaker. I strongly disagree with their points of view and certainly would not celebrate their behavior. But, I also appreciate their contributions to the history of baseball on the field. If they were current players exhibiting the same behavior in the context of today's societal standards, it would be a very different story.

[G1911]

Keeping politics and personal views out of it, I think that this won’t have much of an impact on baseball cards. There are certainly some individual exceptions, but on the whole, the groups of people who are part of this social movement and trend and the group of people who collect pre-war vintage baseball cards do not intersect.

[Nunzio11]

Originally Posted by Throttlesteer

Guys, I know this is a sensitive subject and should have known that it would take a bit of a turn. I appreciate that it's stayed civil, but am still interested in your thoughts about the original question. I realize humans are flawed and many historical figures on all sides of the aisle have dark history.

I do agree, it's hard to judge Cobb or Cap Anson using today's standards. Although some were more outspoken than others, racism was still a widely-accepted behavior well past the turn of the century. Keep in mind, Birth of a Nation was the most prominent movie of the time Cobb, WaJo, Collins, etc...were playing. It was a socially-accepted behavior, even though we can look back on it and judge it otherwise. I completely agree with Klrdds; People 50-100 years from now will probably apply similar judgement to the socially-accepted norms of today and think we're a bunch of idiots or Neanderthals.

I will continue to collect guys like Cobb, Anson, and Speaker. I strongly disagree with their points of view and certainly would not celebrate their behavior. But, I also appreciate their contributions to the history of baseball on the field. If they were current players exhibiting the same behavior in the context of today's societal standards, it would be a very different story.

To put a couple little things in perspective:
Cap Anson was born in 1852
Slavery was abolished in 1865...obviously abolishment doesn’t equate to equality.
Ty Cobb was born 1866
Toilet paper wasn’t invented until 1878, 2 years after the telephone 1876.
It is dangerous to pass historical judgement on individuals who lived in a time and society in which most people today can’t even imagine.

[JollyElm]

Japan attacked us on December 7, 1941, and tried to conquer the world...but now the country is a strong ally of ours. Huh...that's weird...we are friends. We love them. We protect them. But, wait, Ted Williams was enlisted in World War II, right? I'm pretty damn sure he hated the Japanese and referred to them as "J_ps" or "N_ps" and wanted to slaughter every last one of them. But in 2018 those thoughts are simply unacceptable to all the coddled snowflakes, aren't they? Maybe it's time for those idiots to start trying to have that 'anti-Asian racist' Teddy Ballgame booted from The Hall next??

That took me less than two minutes to compose. See how easy it is to revise history to fit a dumb narrative??

[gawaintheknight]

Mercedes cars, unlike Confederate statues, are not built with the purpose of reinforcing and celebrating racism.

Also, Daimler-Benz has in fact taken responsibility, admitted guilt and paid restitution for some of their wartime actions:
https://www.jta.org/1988/06/16/archi...say-recipients

So if you want to have a conversation about reparations regarding the use of slave labor in this country there's precedent for that.

Ted Clayton

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

So I should just go out and topple whatever statue offends me without going through the proper process? I'm Jewish, will you support me in eradicating Mercedes Benzes from the country? Daimler-Benz made a fortune producing armaments for the Third Reich, after all.

[rats60]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

No, but I wouldn't want to rename every school and building and street and city and memorial named after Washington and Jefferson either because they held slaves, or do some other 1984ish thing in the name of political correctness.

We are naming stuff after a child molester and rapist today. What's the difference? No one is perfect, where do we draw the line? It is becoming common to attack people who are dead and can't defend themselves. Al Stump wrote things about Ty Cobb that we now believe were untrue, but you can't put the genie back in the bottle. What ever happened to decency and letting the dead rest in peace?

As far as kicking people out of the HOF, not going to happen. Just look at O.J. Simpson. These guys were elected for their on field performance. If we start putting moral judgements on players, the HOF is going to have a lot of empty wall space and empty showcases.