Applying today's societal lens against the HOFers of yesterday

[Peter_Spaeth]

So I should just go out and topple whatever statue offends me without going through the proper process? I'm Jewish, will you support me in eradicating Mercedes Benzes from the country? Daimler-Benz made a fortune producing armaments for the Third Reich, after all.

[barrysloate]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

So I should just go out and topple whatever statue offends me without going through the proper process? I'm Jewish, will you support me in eradicating Mercedes Benzes from the country? Daimler-Benz made a fortune producing armaments for the Third Reich, after all.

Sure, why not.

[Dewey]

The question is if it will impact collecting. It impacts my collecting.

I collect Jackie Robinson and wouldn't collect Cap Anson. That doesn't make me soft or overly-sensitive or "pc" or in need of a safe space. Though I appreciate gentleness, sensitivity, political right-mindedness, and safety for those under threat. It just means I know my convictions and I know what I want to spend money on to reflect those convictions on display in my home. If the majority collect like me in the future, so be it; if not, so be it. But with a younger (than me) generation raised with social entrepreneurship as a norm, don't be surprised if we see social collecting as well.

[Throttlesteer]

Guys, I know this is a sensitive subject and should have known that it would take a bit of a turn. I appreciate that it's stayed civil, but am still interested in your thoughts about the original question. I realize humans are flawed and many historical figures on all sides of the aisle have dark history.

I do agree, it's hard to judge Cobb or Cap Anson using today's standards. Although some were more outspoken than others, racism was still a widely-accepted behavior well past the turn of the century. Keep in mind, Birth of a Nation was the most prominent movie of the time Cobb, WaJo, Collins, etc...were playing. It was a socially-accepted behavior, even though we can look back on it and judge it otherwise. I completely agree with Klrdds; People 50-100 years from now will probably apply similar judgement to the socially-accepted norms of today and think we're a bunch of idiots or Neanderthals.

I will continue to collect guys like Cobb, Anson, and Speaker. I strongly disagree with their points of view and certainly would not celebrate their behavior. But, I also appreciate their contributions to the history of baseball on the field. If they were current players exhibiting the same behavior in the context of today's societal standards, it would be a very different story.

[G1911]

Keeping politics and personal views out of it, I think that this won’t have much of an impact on baseball cards. There are certainly some individual exceptions, but on the whole, the groups of people who are part of this social movement and trend and the group of people who collect pre-war vintage baseball cards do not intersect.

[Klrdds]

To the O P I guess your original question could be interpreted 2 ways .
Would it influence my collecting ? Definitely not if I were collecting complete sets involving said player or trying to complete a full set of autographs or pictures with a theme and the said player was part of that theme.
As a player collector , of which I am not except maybe Nolan Ryan , it might influence me a little but I look at the contributions to baseball and their place in baseball history before I do outside factors . I just want the baseball importance and the outside the lines stuff doesn't bother me .
As far as ripping out plaques at the HOF based on character based outside baseball issues and society at the time based issues maybe based upon what I've read only Christy Mathewson would remain in the HOF ...and maybe we should be thankful that social media and the press weren't back then like they are today or he could be out too !!!

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Klrdds

To the O P I guess your original question could be interpreted 2 ways .
Would it influence my collecting ? Definitely not if I were collecting complete sets involving said player or trying to complete a full set of autographs or pictures with a theme and the said player was part of that theme.
As a player collector , of which I am not except maybe Nolan Ryan , it might influence me a little but I look at the contributions to baseball and their place in baseball history before I do outside factors . I just want the baseball importance and the outside the lines stuff doesn't bother me .
As far as ripping out plaques at the HOF based on character based outside baseball issues and society at the time based issues maybe based upon what I've read only Christy Mathewson would remain in the HOF ...and maybe we should be thankful that social media and the press weren't back then like they are today or he could be out too !!!

There's a story where Grantland Rice is sitting with fellow reporters on the Yankees train and Ruth comes running by in a state of undress chasing a woman. Rice turns to his colleagues and says, it's a good thing we didn't see that or we might have to write about it. Different times.

[Nunzio11]

Originally Posted by Throttlesteer

Guys, I know this is a sensitive subject and should have known that it would take a bit of a turn. I appreciate that it's stayed civil, but am still interested in your thoughts about the original question. I realize humans are flawed and many historical figures on all sides of the aisle have dark history.

I do agree, it's hard to judge Cobb or Cap Anson using today's standards. Although some were more outspoken than others, racism was still a widely-accepted behavior well past the turn of the century. Keep in mind, Birth of a Nation was the most prominent movie of the time Cobb, WaJo, Collins, etc...were playing. It was a socially-accepted behavior, even though we can look back on it and judge it otherwise. I completely agree with Klrdds; People 50-100 years from now will probably apply similar judgement to the socially-accepted norms of today and think we're a bunch of idiots or Neanderthals.

I will continue to collect guys like Cobb, Anson, and Speaker. I strongly disagree with their points of view and certainly would not celebrate their behavior. But, I also appreciate their contributions to the history of baseball on the field. If they were current players exhibiting the same behavior in the context of today's societal standards, it would be a very different story.

To put a couple little things in perspective:
Cap Anson was born in 1852
Slavery was abolished in 1865...obviously abolishment doesn’t equate to equality.
Ty Cobb was born 1866
Toilet paper wasn’t invented until 1878, 2 years after the telephone 1876.
It is dangerous to pass historical judgement on individuals who lived in a time and society in which most people today can’t even imagine.

[Dewey]

Originally Posted by Nunzio11

To put a couple little things in perspective:
Cap Anson was born in 1852
Slavery was abolished in 1865...obviously abolishment doesn’t equate to equality.
Ty Cobb was born 1866
Toilet paper wasn’t invented until 1878, 2 years after the telephone 1876.
It is dangerous to pass historical judgement on individuals who lived in a time and society in which most people today can’t even imagine.

The Quakers promoted abolition as early as the 1680s in the colony of Pennsylvania. "Society" is not monolithic. Reasonably assessing the past is an important part of being a discerning person in the present. The only thing dangerous about it is somehow thinking we will be free from future scorn.

[gawaintheknight]

+1. Lots of white people understood that slavery was wrong and, of course, so did all of the slaves. Thank you for making this point.

Ted

Originally Posted by Dewey

The Quakers promoted abolition as early as the 1680s in the colony of Pennsylvania. "Society" is not monolithic. Reasonably assessing the past is an important part of being a discerning person in the present. The only thing dangerous about it is somehow thinking we will be free from future scorn.

[JollyElm]

Japan attacked us on December 7, 1941, and tried to conquer the world...but now the country is a strong ally of ours. Huh...that's weird...we are friends. We love them. We protect them. But, wait, Ted Williams was enlisted in World War II, right? I'm pretty damn sure he hated the Japanese and referred to them as "J_ps" or "N_ps" and wanted to slaughter every last one of them. But in 2018 those thoughts are simply unacceptable to all the coddled snowflakes, aren't they? Maybe it's time for those idiots to start trying to have that 'anti-Asian racist' Teddy Ballgame booted from The Hall next??

That took me less than two minutes to compose. See how easy it is to revise history to fit a dumb narrative??

[gawaintheknight]

Mercedes cars, unlike Confederate statues, are not built with the purpose of reinforcing and celebrating racism.

Also, Daimler-Benz has in fact taken responsibility, admitted guilt and paid restitution for some of their wartime actions:
https://www.jta.org/1988/06/16/archi...say-recipients

So if you want to have a conversation about reparations regarding the use of slave labor in this country there's precedent for that.

Ted Clayton

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

So I should just go out and topple whatever statue offends me without going through the proper process? I'm Jewish, will you support me in eradicating Mercedes Benzes from the country? Daimler-Benz made a fortune producing armaments for the Third Reich, after all.