First player to reach 3000 hits not to make the HOF?

[nat]

The problem is that Perez, Rice, and Cepeda were pretty bad choices for the hall. (Dawson is a step above those guys.) Perez is in because the hall has always looked kindly on good players who played for great teams. (Earle Combs, Tony Lazzeri, and so on.) Cepeda and Rice were mistakes. But basically these guys are indistinguishable from hordes of other guys, and McGriff is one of the ones who got left out. (Along with Fred Lynn, Luis Gonzalez, Ken Williams, Dale Murphy, Bob Elliot, Torii Hunter, Brian Giles, Norm Cash, Ellis Burkes, Bernie Williams, and on and on.)

As for Ichiro, he won me over on the HOF thing eventually. The more interesting question is whether he's going to get into the Japanese hall of fame. He was extraordinarily good while playing for Orix, but he came to America at 27. Most of his career has been over here. If I had to guess, though, I'd say that he goes in. Ichiro is the proof that the best Japanese players are world class baseball players. I mean, it's hard to doubt that Oh or Nagashima were world class, but Ichiro is the proof that they were. There is also some precedent here. Hideki Matsui is in the Japanese hall of fame, even though he left Japan at 29. I'd guess that Ichiro is the first player to be inducted into both halls of fame.

[steve B]

Originally Posted by nat

The problem is that Perez, Rice, and Cepeda were pretty bad choices for the hall. (Dawson is a step above those guys.) Perez is in because the hall has always looked kindly on good players who played for great teams. (Earle Combs, Tony Lazzeri, and so on.) Cepeda and Rice were mistakes. But basically these guys are indistinguishable from hordes of other guys, and McGriff is one of the ones who got left out. (Along with Fred Lynn, Luis Gonzalez, Ken Williams, Dale Murphy, Bob Elliot, Torii Hunter, Brian Giles, Norm Cash, Ellis Burkes, Bernie Williams, and on and on.)

As for Ichiro, he won me over on the HOF thing eventually. The more interesting question is whether he's going to get into the Japanese hall of fame. He was extraordinarily good while playing for Orix, but he came to America at 27. Most of his career has been over here. If I had to guess, though, I'd say that he goes in. Ichiro is the proof that the best Japanese players are world class baseball players. I mean, it's hard to doubt that Oh or Nagashima were world class, but Ichiro is the proof that they were. There is also some precedent here. Hideki Matsui is in the Japanese hall of fame, even though he left Japan at 29. I'd guess that Ichiro is the first player to be inducted into both halls of fame.

You never saw Rice play did you?

[KMayUSA6060]

I can't believe I'm reading posts that suggest even in the slightest that Ichiro is a borderline HoFer or shouldn't be a HoFer at all.

[tiger8mush]

Originally Posted by KMayUSA6060

I can't believe I'm reading posts that suggest even in the slightest that Ichiro is a borderline HoFer or shouldn't be a HoFer at all.

+1
All-Star and Gold Glove RFer for 10 straight years, an MVP, led the league in hits 7 years. Had speed, cannon arm, great teammate, never heard any bad news about him. Whats not to like?

[PowderedH2O]

Rice comes up often as the weakest HOFer. I saw him play his entire career. Is he George Brett? Nope. But there are DOZENS of guys in the HOF worse than Rice. I have no issue with a bigger HOF where Murphy, Parker, Foster, Harvey, Hernandez, and Mattingly are right there alongside him. And each of those guys is better than many of the guys in now.

[nat]

Ichiro had three problems (1) he was a corner outfielder who didn't have any power, (2) he never drew a walk so his on-base percentage was not as good as you would expect given his batting average and, by far most importantly, (3) he spent most of his peak years in Japan. Most players produce most of their value in their 20s, and Ichiro spent most of his 20s overseas. If you combine his production in Japan and USA he's easily qualified, but historically the only non-MLB play that the American hall recognizes is the negro leagues. (Otherwise guys like Buzz Arlett would be in the hall.) Like I said above, however, I think that even his just-USA performance is worthy of enshrinement, and I suspect that he'll get some extra credit in Japan and get inducted there too.

[packs]

Does it really matter where your peak years were played if you still wind up with the career Ichiro had?

[clydepepper]

Originally Posted by PowderedH2O

Rice comes up often as the weakest HOFer. I saw him play his entire career. Is he George Brett? Nope. But there are DOZENS of guys in the HOF worse than Rice. I have no issue with a bigger HOF where Murphy, Parker, Foster, Harvey, Hernandez, and Mattingly are right there alongside him. And each of those guys is better than many of the guys in now.

WHICH Harvey?

DOUG Harvey's already in.

MATT Harvey won't ever get in.

Harvey DENT...now, HE might get enough support!


.

[cardinalcollector]

Originally Posted by clydepepper

WHICH Harvey?

DOUG Harvey's already in.

MATT Harvey won't ever get in.

Harvey DENT...now, HE might get enough support!


.

I'm pretty sure he meant Garvey. LOL

[mickey7mantle7]

Pete Rose?

[steve B]

Originally Posted by PowderedH2O

Rice comes up often as the weakest HOFer. I saw him play his entire career. Is he George Brett? Nope. But there are DOZENS of guys in the HOF worse than Rice. I have no issue with a bigger HOF where Murphy, Parker, Foster, Harvey, Hernandez, and Mattingly are right there alongside him. And each of those guys is better than many of the guys in now.

He had his faults, one being neither Yaz or Williams and not getting along with the press. He was amazing for several years, and when things fell off, he took a lot of heat for being merely above average. I'm convinced a lot of it was that pitchers got him into a lot of double plays by pitching him low and he never adjusted. There was also a thing later in his career where someone in the press suggested he needed glasses. He got a pair, and ugly pair, and hit a lot better until he abandoned them after taking lots of flack for just how ugly his glasses were.

Sort of odd how people also say Lynn should be in, when he had only a few good years, many ruined by the almost required "long drive Lynn goes back to the wall jumps and ... pulls his groin" (I liked him as a player, but wow was he fragile)

Of course nobody talks about Evans who had about as good an arm as Ichiro, and had some power.

[Bored5000]

Originally Posted by PowderedH2O

Rice comes up often as the weakest HOFer. I saw him play his entire career. Is he George Brett? Nope. But there are DOZENS of guys in the HOF worse than Rice. I have no issue with a bigger HOF where Murphy, Parker, Foster, Harvey, Hernandez, and Mattingly are right there alongside him. And each of those guys is better than many of the guys in now.

I would have an issue with that. The HoF should be harder to get into, not easier. It isn't the Hall of Very Good.

Player X is in so Player Y should also be in always serves to lower the overall quality of the inductees.

[clydepepper]

Originally Posted by Bored5000

I would have an issue with that. The HoF should be harder to get into, not easier. It isn't the Hall of Very Good.

Player X is in so Player Y should also be in always serves to lower the overall quality of the inductees.

Totally agree. The Hall of Fame should be the farthest thing away from handing out Participation Trophies.

There will always be passionate arguments for those who aren't in...

Minnie Minoso and Luis Tiant are the two I support for induction. I really hated the fact that Minnie passed away without that honor, but after the way Ron Santo was treated, I'm not surprised.

[glynparson]

Originally Posted by Bored5000

I would have an issue with that. The HoF should be harder to get into, not easier. It isn't the Hall of Very Good.

Player X is in so Player Y should also be in always serves to lower the overall quality of the inductees.

Nor is it the hall of greatest of the greats but the hall of fame. I never understood that argument. I for one am for a larger hall it is a museum there to tell the games history. so if you are a figure that contributes to the games history put them in. Allow the plaques to tell their level of greatness by their stats and their stories and contributions.