First player to reach 3000 hits not to make the HOF?

PowderedH2O · #1 07-30-2018, 12:34 PM

Rice comes up often as the weakest HOFer. I saw him play his entire career. Is he George Brett? Nope. But there are DOZENS of guys in the HOF worse than Rice. I have no issue with a bigger HOF where Murphy, Parker, Foster, Harvey, Hernandez, and Mattingly are right there alongside him. And each of those guys is better than many of the guys in now.

nat · #2 07-30-2018, 02:08 PM

Ichiro had three problems (1) he was a corner outfielder who didn't have any power, (2) he never drew a walk so his on-base percentage was not as good as you would expect given his batting average and, by far most importantly, (3) he spent most of his peak years in Japan. Most players produce most of their value in their 20s, and Ichiro spent most of his 20s overseas. If you combine his production in Japan and USA he's easily qualified, but historically the only non-MLB play that the American hall recognizes is the negro leagues. (Otherwise guys like Buzz Arlett would be in the hall.) Like I said above, however, I think that even his just-USA performance is worthy of enshrinement, and I suspect that he'll get some extra credit in Japan and get inducted there too.

packs · #3 07-30-2018, 02:51 PM

Does it really matter where your peak years were played if you still wind up with the career Ichiro had?

clydepepper · #4 07-30-2018, 02:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PowderedH2O

Rice comes up often as the weakest HOFer. I saw him play his entire career. Is he George Brett? Nope. But there are DOZENS of guys in the HOF worse than Rice. I have no issue with a bigger HOF where Murphy, Parker, Foster, Harvey, Hernandez, and Mattingly are right there alongside him. And each of those guys is better than many of the guys in now.

WHICH Harvey?

DOUG Harvey's already in.

MATT Harvey won't ever get in.

Harvey DENT...now, HE might get enough support!

.

cardinalcollector · #5 08-01-2018, 07:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by clydepepper

WHICH Harvey?

DOUG Harvey's already in.

MATT Harvey won't ever get in.

Harvey DENT...now, HE might get enough support!

.

I'm pretty sure he meant Garvey. LOL

mickey7mantle7 · #6 09-16-2018, 11:18 AM

Pete Rose?

steve B · #7 07-30-2018, 02:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PowderedH2O

Rice comes up often as the weakest HOFer. I saw him play his entire career. Is he George Brett? Nope. But there are DOZENS of guys in the HOF worse than Rice. I have no issue with a bigger HOF where Murphy, Parker, Foster, Harvey, Hernandez, and Mattingly are right there alongside him. And each of those guys is better than many of the guys in now.

He had his faults, one being neither Yaz or Williams and not getting along with the press. He was amazing for several years, and when things fell off, he took a lot of heat for being merely above average. I'm convinced a lot of it was that pitchers got him into a lot of double plays by pitching him low and he never adjusted. There was also a thing later in his career where someone in the press suggested he needed glasses. He got a pair, and ugly pair, and hit a lot better until he abandoned them after taking lots of flack for just how ugly his glasses were.

Sort of odd how people also say Lynn should be in, when he had only a few good years, many ruined by the almost required "long drive Lynn goes back to the wall jumps and ... pulls his groin" (I liked him as a player, but wow was he fragile)

Of course nobody talks about Evans who had about as good an arm as Ichiro, and had some power.

Bored5000 · #8 07-30-2018, 03:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PowderedH2O

Rice comes up often as the weakest HOFer. I saw him play his entire career. Is he George Brett? Nope. But there are DOZENS of guys in the HOF worse than Rice. I have no issue with a bigger HOF where Murphy, Parker, Foster, Harvey, Hernandez, and Mattingly are right there alongside him. And each of those guys is better than many of the guys in now.

I would have an issue with that. The HoF should be harder to get into, not easier. It isn't the Hall of Very Good.

Player X is in so Player Y should also be in always serves to lower the overall quality of the inductees.

clydepepper · #9 07-30-2018, 03:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bored5000

I would have an issue with that. The HoF should be harder to get into, not easier. It isn't the Hall of Very Good.

Player X is in so Player Y should also be in always serves to lower the overall quality of the inductees.

Totally agree. The Hall of Fame should be the farthest thing away from handing out Participation Trophies.

There will always be passionate arguments for those who aren't in...

Minnie Minoso and Luis Tiant are the two I support for induction. I really hated the fact that Minnie passed away without that honor, but after the way Ron Santo was treated, I'm not surprised.

packs · #10 07-30-2018, 03:29 PM

You always see the Jim Rice guys who turn out whenever someone rains on his parade. And it's always the same argument: did you see him play?

So question for you guys: did you think Jim Rice was better than Albert Belle? You would have seen them both play by virtue of seeing Rice.

Peter_Spaeth · #11 07-30-2018, 03:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by packs

You always see the Jim Rice guys who turn out whenever someone rains on his parade. And it's always the same argument: did you see him play?

So question for you guys: did you think Jim Rice was better than Albert Belle? You would have seen them both play by virtue of seeing Rice.

I saw a lot of Rice from 81 on when I moved here and I was not a huge fan, honestly. It seemed he killed a huge number of rallies with weak grounders to short. I really wonder if, overall, Evans was not a better player despite obviously not having the few megaseasons, which of course you can't take away from Rice.

nat · #12 07-30-2018, 05:22 PM

Evans was the better player. Part of the reason that he doesn't get as much recognition as he deserves is that his best season, when he led the league in HRs, was cut short by the strike.

steve B · #13 07-30-2018, 08:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by packs

You always see the Jim Rice guys who turn out whenever someone rains on his parade. And it's always the same argument: did you see him play?

So question for you guys: did you think Jim Rice was better than Albert Belle? You would have seen them both play by virtue of seeing Rice.

Yes.

I'd rate them pretty close overall as hitters, Belle maybe a bit better overall, while Rice had more power. I've never seen the ball get out of the park so fast. No lengthy HR calls with him up.

NiceDocter · #14 07-31-2018, 01:05 AM

The answer..... PETE ROSE

seanofjapan · #15 07-31-2018, 09:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NiceDocter

The answer..... PETE ROSE

Its funny that this thread got to four pages before someone mentioned the most obvious example.

glynparson · #16 08-13-2018, 12:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bored5000

I would have an issue with that. The HoF should be harder to get into, not easier. It isn't the Hall of Very Good.

Player X is in so Player Y should also be in always serves to lower the overall quality of the inductees.

Nor is it the hall of greatest of the greats but the hall of fame. I never understood that argument. I for one am for a larger hall it is a museum there to tell the games history. so if you are a figure that contributes to the games history put them in. Allow the plaques to tell their level of greatness by their stats and their stories and contributions.

packs · #17 08-13-2018, 01:10 PM

Let Juan Pierre be the cautionary tale and most likely mirror for Markakis. In 11 seasons between 2001 and 2011, Pierre amassed nearly 2,000 hits by age 33.

He then retired 2 years later at age 35 with only just over 2200 hits.

orioles93 · #18 08-13-2018, 02:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by packs

Let Juan Pierre be the cautionary tale and most likely mirror for Markakis. In 11 seasons between 2001 and 2011, Pierre amassed nearly 2,000 hits by age 33.

He then retired 2 years later at age 35 with only just over 2200 hits.

Juan Pierre was a singles hitter with speed. He had no power. He also couldn�t throw. Markakis is a more complete hitter and player and has been incredibly consistent over his career. He is the type of player that I think ages well. Never had a ton of power. So you don�t have to worry about that declining, and he�s always been a contact hitter with a good eye.he keeps himself in shape. I see him being an above average player for atleast 5 more years.

packs · #19 08-13-2018, 02:58 PM

Why do you think that though? He'll be 39 years old in 5 more years. The only active players who aren't pitchers that are 38 or above are Adrian Beltre and Chase Utley. Beltre hasn't been able to stay on the field dating back to last season and Utley is a role player.

orioles93 · #20 08-14-2018, 10:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by packs

Why do you think that though? He'll be 39 years old in 5 more years. The only active players who aren't pitchers that are 38 or above are Adrian Beltre and Chase Utley. Beltre hasn't been able to stay on the field dating back to last season and Utley is a role player.

Just a gut feeling i guess. Everyone thought he was declining in his last few years in Baltimore. Not many people thought he would have many good years left. Instead he went to Atlanta and has gotten better. His double totals the last 4 years are 38, 38, 39, and 37(so far this year). His RBI totals have gone up the last 3 years, and outside of 2015 his homer totals have stayed fairly consistent. 2015 wasn't a disaster year even though he only hit 3 home runs, he hit .296/370 and had 38 doubles and 181 hits.

The main reason I think he has a chance to get to 3000 hits and remain consistent for at least 5 years is he has remained very healthy for almost his entire career. He has played 155 games or better every season in his career except his rookie year (147) and one season that he got hurt (104). Players who stay healthy have more chances to accumulate stats such as hits. I just see him staying healthy and sticking around long enough to get there.

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