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My point was that he ONLY had those 10 years to accumulate stats. When a career starts at 28 you have clearly missed a number of prime years. Plus there's the fact that Jackie was a second baseman not an outfielder. Also none of what I said was a knock on Roberto, but I don't think anyone would argue that he was one of the top 2 outfielders of all-time while one could certainly make that argument for Jackie at 2b.
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#2
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I'd list him either 3rd or 4th. I would put Morgan and Collins 1-2 in some order, then Hornsby and Jackie in some order 3-4. That's pretty lofty company for a guy that got started so late.
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I'm Rajah, Jackie, Morgan, Collins, but either way it's hardly a "real stretch" to put him in the top 2 or 3.
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#7
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Rogers Hornsby & Joe Morgan definitely and maybe... Eddie Collins, Charlie Gehringer, Roberto Alomar & Ryne Sandberg
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again obviously it's a matter than can be debated, but saying it's a stretch to put him in the top two or 3 means, to me, that you think he's WAY outside that rarified air. If we're debating where he falls in the top 5 it's hardly a stretch to say he's 2 or 3.
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#9
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Even if we use Jackie's top 5 seasons of WAR, 42.2, these 4 players had more WAR in their 5 best seasons.
1. Rogers Hornsby 53.6 (49.2 best 5 consecutive seasons, 98.1 WAR over 10 consecutive seasons) 2. Joe Morgan 47.8 (5 consecutive seasons) 3. Eddie Collins 47.7 (career WAR 124) 4. Nap Lajoie 44.8 (career WAR 107.4) If you use OPS+ 1. Rogers Hornsby 175 2. Nap Lajoie 150 3. Eddie Collins 141 4. Joe Morgan 132 4. Jackie Robinson 132 |
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Hornsby was easily the best hitter, but he was not a great defensive player, nor did he run the bases like the others. Also, from all accounts, Hornsby was not a tremendous leader or team player. Morgan, Collins, and Robinson all had that "it" factor. They were winners.
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If you see the guy as a top 5 all time 2B then why would you suggest he wouldn't have had a significantly better career if he started it before 28?
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The reality is that he likely missed two to three years of playing time as he was in the military for several years during WW2 until he was unjustly court martialed and discharged at the end of 1944.
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Why does Carew get no love? His OBP SLG OPS and OPS+ are, interestingly and somewhat eerily really, virtually identical to Morgan. 7 batting titles. 3000 hits. Very high BA. Was it his fielding or lack thereof?
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Only half his career at 2b if I recall. Same issue with Rose although in his case it's even less than half. Same problem I have calling Yount or Banks a top 5 shortstop.
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Plus, his cards look really nice.
For my money the best looking of the 1956 Topps cards. And again in 1969: and 1972: Such a shame there wasn't a 1974 Topps tribute card to Clemente.
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#18
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A few of my favorites.
Many great cards of him.
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2. No power whatsoever.... not many extra base hits. 3. No championships at all. Morgan was a GREAT clutch hitter, had some surprising power, and won two World Championships. Granted, Carew played in Minnesota at a time that they were not great. Those would be the 3 reasons that immediately come to mind. There's more to it than just stats on paper. But MLB did put the A.L. Batting Title in his name, and he was a great singles hitter. Last edited by perezfan; 07-13-2018 at 11:30 AM. |
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Define "clutch".
One measure of "clutch" situations is guys in scoring position. Morgan hit .261 with RISP. 2 outs and RISP, just .253. "Late & Close", he hit .265. Last edited by Tabe; 07-16-2018 at 11:26 PM. |
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What about .329 with RISP, .319 2 outs and RISP and .343 late and close? Is that a clutch hitter?
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