Clemente: Inner circle of the elite, or on his way?

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

Originally Posted by rats60

I was just pointing out that Clemente was better than Jackie over those same years. WAR severely penalizes Clemente as a RF and in my opinion gives an undeserved bonus to 2B. There is no doubt that Jackie was a great player. He should have won 2 or 3 MVP awards, but it is a real stretch to put him in the top 2 or 3 at 2B. Claiming he missed "prime" years is something we don't know. Clemente's prime was age 29 to 36. I would have Clemente top 3 RF with Ruth and Aaron and Ruth played almost as many games in LF as RF.

Name all the 2b better than Jackie.

[PowderedH2O]

I'd list him either 3rd or 4th. I would put Morgan and Collins 1-2 in some order, then Hornsby and Jackie in some order 3-4. That's pretty lofty company for a guy that got started so late.

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

I'm Rajah, Jackie, Morgan, Collins, but either way it's hardly a "real stretch" to put him in the top 2 or 3.

[clydepepper]

Originally Posted by Aquarian Sports Cards

Name all the 2b better than Jackie.

Rogers Hornsby & Joe Morgan definitely

and maybe...

Eddie Collins, Charlie Gehringer, Roberto Alomar & Ryne Sandberg

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

Originally Posted by clydepepper

Rogers Hornsby & Joe Morgan definitely

and maybe...

Eddie Collins, Charlie Gehringer, Roberto Alomar & Ryne Sandberg

again obviously it's a matter than can be debated, but saying it's a stretch to put him in the top two or 3 means, to me, that you think he's WAY outside that rarified air. If we're debating where he falls in the top 5 it's hardly a stretch to say he's 2 or 3.

[rats60]

Originally Posted by Aquarian Sports Cards

again obviously it's a matter than can be debated, but saying it's a stretch to put him in the top two or 3 means, to me, that you think he's WAY outside that rarified air. If we're debating where he falls in the top 5 it's hardly a stretch to say he's 2 or 3.

He is 17th in WAR, he is 13th in JAWS, 5th in WAR7 and 5th (or tied for 4th) in OPS+. It is a stretch to project him as higher than 5th if he had a full career when his prime was lower than the other 4. I have him above every player with a lower peak and every player who was a worse hitter, regardless of any other factors. I don't see how you can put him in the top 2 or 3 with great players like Hornsby, Lajoie, Collins and Morgan at the position. All 5 are in the rarified air of all time greats in my opinion. As a person, Jackie stands above all of them.

[rats60]

Originally Posted by Aquarian Sports Cards

Name all the 2b better than Jackie.

Even if we use Jackie's top 5 seasons of WAR, 42.2, these 4 players had more WAR in their 5 best seasons.

1. Rogers Hornsby 53.6 (49.2 best 5 consecutive seasons, 98.1 WAR over 10 consecutive seasons)
2. Joe Morgan 47.8 (5 consecutive seasons)
3. Eddie Collins 47.7 (career WAR 124)
4. Nap Lajoie 44.8 (career WAR 107.4)

If you use OPS+
1. Rogers Hornsby 175
2. Nap Lajoie 150
3. Eddie Collins 141
4. Joe Morgan 132
4. Jackie Robinson 132

[PowderedH2O]

Hornsby was easily the best hitter, but he was not a great defensive player, nor did he run the bases like the others. Also, from all accounts, Hornsby was not a tremendous leader or team player. Morgan, Collins, and Robinson all had that "it" factor. They were winners.

[packs]

If you see the guy as a top 5 all time 2B then why would you suggest he wouldn't have had a significantly better career if he started it before 28?

[rhettyeakley]

Originally Posted by packs

If you see the guy as a top 5 all time 2B then why would you suggest he wouldn't have had a significantly better career if he started it before 28?

The reality is that he likely missed two to three years of playing time as he was in the military for several years during WW2 until he was unjustly court martialed and discharged at the end of 1944.

[frankbmd]

Clemente’s movie will undoubtedly be titled “21”.

As a sequel so to speak of “42”, will it be half as good or half as long?