Clemente: Inner circle of the elite, or on his way?

[rhettyeakley]

Great player for sure and certainly in the same category as some of the greats of the game but was not really superior as a ballplayer than Al Kaline, George Brett, Wade Boggs, Yaz, etc., etc. which are all IMO on the second tier of "All-Time Great" status. That being said Jackie Robinson is also not on tier one as a ballplayer.

Jackie and Roberto Clemente both transcend the sport they played in their own ways. For Jackie Robinson the reason is obvious, Clemente was perhaps the first truly great Latin American superstar at the Major League level and his star has continually risen over the past few decades. Back in the day when I first began collecting Clemente's cards were priced more along the lines of Kaline, Duke Snider, Eddie Mathews, Ernie Banks, and that group of players... below the level of Willie Mays, Hank Aaron, Stan Musial and obviously Mickey Mantle. There has certainly been a shift in the "power rankings" of players over the years.

On the flip-side of players like Jackie Robinson, Roberto Clemente & the Yankee Stars (Mantle, Jeter, DiMaggio, Maris, etc) are some great players that have great statistics and barely sell for more than the most common of Hall Of Famers. All these players mentioned in this paragraph tend to sell as collectibles for more than their statistical peers. It is all about demand.

[hcv123]

I am a life long Clemente collector. I was never a huge sports fan nor did I get to see him play (that I can recall - I was 6 when he died). I became interested because even when I started collecting, his cards were worth more than common players, some of the "headlines of his life" were amazing, his cards were in a multitude of cool regional and test issues.

Clemente cards have definitely risen in popularity (and price). I believe much more rapidly than some of his statistical contemporaries. As has been touched on - In addition to him being a great player (Gold gloves, multiple time all star All Star, Batting leader, MVP, 2 world series, 3000 hits), the story of him working his ass off for the love of the game and making it to a professional level - is the fulfillment of what many a child has dreamed of, His breaking through early on of a barrier first broken a few years earlier by Jackie, and his need to deal with all the associated bs and his ability to handle and rise above it and the crazy circumstances surrounding his death while committing a huge act of compassion and selflessness I suspect will continue to push Clemente up the collected charts for a while to come.

I've heard talk of a movie for years - glad to hear it may be truly under way!

Clemente beyond being a great player - was a great role model - something SORELY lacking with many (not all)great athletes since. Just a really unique combination of great athlete and great human being.

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

Originally Posted by rhettyeakley

Great player for sure and certainly in the same category as some of the greats of the game but was not really superior as a ballplayer than Al Kaline, George Brett, Wade Boggs, Yaz, etc., etc. which are all IMO on the second tier of "All-Time Great" status. That being said Jackie Robinson is also not on tier one as a ballplayer.

Jackie and Roberto Clemente both transcend the sport they played in their own ways. For Jackie Robinson the reason is obvious, Clemente was perhaps the first truly great Latin American superstar at the Major League level and his star has continually risen over the past few decades. Back in the day when I first began collecting Clemente's cards were priced more along the lines of Kaline, Duke Snider, Eddie Mathews, Ernie Banks, and that group of players... below the level of Willie Mays, Hank Aaron, Stan Musial and obviously Mickey Mantle. There has certainly been a shift in the "power rankings" of players over the years.

On the flip-side of players like Jackie Robinson, Roberto Clemente & the Yankee Stars (Mantle, Jeter, DiMaggio, Maris, etc) are some great players that have great statistics and barely sell for more than the most common of Hall Of Famers. All these players mentioned in this paragraph tend to sell as collectibles for more than their statistical peers. It is all about demand.

I beg to differ on Jackie. He had a 10 year career that only started when he was 28. In 10 years he put up a 61 WAR. Even with the late start he put up the 15th greatest 5 Year WAR in history 42.2. For traditionalists he won ROY and MVP a Batting Title had a career OBP over .400 and put up an .883 OPS career at Second Base. His MLB career basically started at the end of his prime. I think he should be recognized as tier one. For my money he's the second greatest 2b of all time. That's pretty first tier to me.

[rats60]

Originally Posted by Aquarian Sports Cards

I beg to differ on Jackie. He had a 10 year career that only started when he was 28. In 10 years he put up a 61 WAR. Even with the late start he put up the 15th greatest 5 Year WAR in history 42.2. For traditionalists he won ROY and MVP a Batting Title had a career OBP over .400 and put up an .883 OPS career at Second Base. His MLB career basically started at the end of his prime. I think he should be recognized as tier one. For my money he's the second greatest 2b of all time. That's pretty first tier to me.

From age 28 to 37, Roberto Clemente put up 69 WAR, 8 more than Jackie.

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

Originally Posted by rats60

From age 28 to 37, Roberto Clemente put up 69 WAR, 8 more than Jackie.

My point was that he ONLY had those 10 years to accumulate stats. When a career starts at 28 you have clearly missed a number of prime years. Plus there's the fact that Jackie was a second baseman not an outfielder. Also none of what I said was a knock on Roberto, but I don't think anyone would argue that he was one of the top 2 outfielders of all-time while one could certainly make that argument for Jackie at 2b.

[rats60]

Originally Posted by Aquarian Sports Cards

My point was that he ONLY had those 10 years to accumulate stats. When a career starts at 28 you have clearly missed a number of prime years. Plus there's the fact that Jackie was a second baseman not an outfielder. Also none of what I said was a knock on Roberto, but I don't think anyone would argue that he was one of the top 2 outfielders of all-time while one could certainly make that argument for Jackie at 2b.

I was just pointing out that Clemente was better than Jackie over those same years. WAR severely penalizes Clemente as a RF and in my opinion gives an undeserved bonus to 2B. There is no doubt that Jackie was a great player. He should have won 2 or 3 MVP awards, but it is a real stretch to put him in the top 2 or 3 at 2B. Claiming he missed "prime" years is something we don't know. Clemente's prime was age 29 to 36. I would have Clemente top 3 RF with Ruth and Aaron and Ruth played almost as many games in LF as RF.

[packs]

Originally Posted by rats60

I was just pointing out that Clemente was better than Jackie over those same years. WAR severely penalizes Clemente as a RF and in my opinion gives an undeserved bonus to 2B. There is no doubt that Jackie was a great player. He should have won 2 or 3 MVP awards, but it is a real stretch to put him in the top 2 or 3 at 2B. Claiming he missed "prime" years is something we don't know. Clemente's prime was age 29 to 36. I would have Clemente top 3 RF with Ruth and Aaron and Ruth played almost as many games in LF as RF.

I'm pretty sure we know Jackie missed prime years.

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

Originally Posted by rats60

I was just pointing out that Clemente was better than Jackie over those same years. WAR severely penalizes Clemente as a RF and in my opinion gives an undeserved bonus to 2B. There is no doubt that Jackie was a great player. He should have won 2 or 3 MVP awards, but it is a real stretch to put him in the top 2 or 3 at 2B. Claiming he missed "prime" years is something we don't know. Clemente's prime was age 29 to 36. I would have Clemente top 3 RF with Ruth and Aaron and Ruth played almost as many games in LF as RF.

Name all the 2b better than Jackie.

[PowderedH2O]

I'd list him either 3rd or 4th. I would put Morgan and Collins 1-2 in some order, then Hornsby and Jackie in some order 3-4. That's pretty lofty company for a guy that got started so late.

[clydepepper]

Originally Posted by Aquarian Sports Cards

Name all the 2b better than Jackie.

Rogers Hornsby & Joe Morgan definitely

and maybe...

Eddie Collins, Charlie Gehringer, Roberto Alomar & Ryne Sandberg

[rats60]

Originally Posted by Aquarian Sports Cards

Name all the 2b better than Jackie.

Even if we use Jackie's top 5 seasons of WAR, 42.2, these 4 players had more WAR in their 5 best seasons.

1. Rogers Hornsby 53.6 (49.2 best 5 consecutive seasons, 98.1 WAR over 10 consecutive seasons)
2. Joe Morgan 47.8 (5 consecutive seasons)
3. Eddie Collins 47.7 (career WAR 124)
4. Nap Lajoie 44.8 (career WAR 107.4)

If you use OPS+
1. Rogers Hornsby 175
2. Nap Lajoie 150
3. Eddie Collins 141
4. Joe Morgan 132
4. Jackie Robinson 132

[darwinbulldog]

Originally Posted by rats60

I was just pointing out that Clemente was better than Jackie over those same years. WAR severely penalizes Clemente as a RF and in my opinion gives an undeserved bonus to 2B. There is no doubt that Jackie was a great player. He should have won 2 or 3 MVP awards, but it is a real stretch to put him in the top 2 or 3 at 2B. Claiming he missed "prime" years is something we don't know. Clemente's prime was age 29 to 36. I would have Clemente top 3 RF with Ruth and Aaron and Ruth played almost as many games in LF as RF.

Agreed. Top 2 or 3 at 2nd base means you have to put him ahead of at least half of these guys: Rogers Hornsby, Eddie Collins, Joe Morgan, Nap Lajoie. That's untenable. The order is debatable, but those are pretty clearly the top 4.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Why does Carew get no love? His OBP SLG OPS and OPS+ are, interestingly and somewhat eerily really, virtually identical to Morgan. 7 batting titles. 3000 hits. Very high BA. Was it his fielding or lack thereof?

[tschock]

Originally Posted by Aquarian Sports Cards

He had a 10 year career that only started when he was 28....For traditionalists he won ROY ...

A total nit, as I appreciate what you are saying in general, but it could be easily argued that this may 'soften' the ROY award since I believe 28 is close to a player's peak year. At least more so than 21-23-ish.