Clemente: Inner circle of the elite, or on his way?

[rats60]

Originally Posted by CW

These things can be debated for generations, and no doubt many bars and pubs across the country have held the same debates that we do on this forum. It's fun and it's what we do as sports fans.

Now, I'm as big of a Clemente fan as any, and while I had not seen either Kaline or Clemente play in person (too young), it should be known that Kaline also was known for a rocket arm. Just read the cartoon on the back of his 54 Topps rookie card.

Also, if you have a minute, check out this passage from Bill Dow's blog article. Here's the excerpt on Kaline's arm:

In 22 seasons Kaline had 170 assists and had a TZR of 155. In 18 seasons Clemente had 266 assists and had a TZR of 204. No doubt that Kaline was one of the greatest defensive RF, but Clemente was in a class by himself.

[Hot Springs Bathers]

I saw the majority of Clemente's career but in the pre-cable days you only saw a player on TV a few times a season. I remember that everyone considered him an all-star caliber player but he was never mentioned among the top ten of his era.

I am a huge fan of his and as a 30 year member of SABR I'm tickled people think so highly of him now. As for the face of the franchise. There is Wagner and everyone else.

Of course in this time of ESPN and Fox labeling some hit or defensive play each night as one of the best of all-time I once again am glad that people think of him.

Even the NFL Network seldom recognizes anything pre-Super Bowl??????

[CW]

Originally Posted by rats60

In 22 seasons Kaline had 170 assists and had a TZR of 155. In 18 seasons Clemente had 266 assists and had a TZR of 204. No doubt that Kaline was one of the greatest defensive RF, but Clemente was in a class by himself.

Hmmm, so you're the guy at the bar who always pulls his phone out to have stats to back up his argument.

Seriously, though, that's some interesting information. I just spent about 15 minutes learning about total zone runs. Good stuff and point well taken.

[bbcard1]

It is an interesting argument. It all really depends on how you define inner circle. Clemente would have a very good augment for the all time national league all star team, starting along side Mays and Aaron, especially if you move Musial to first and depending on your opinion and stand on Barry Bonds. Does that make him inner circle? OTOH, he probably would not be in the top 10 outfielder of all time if viewed objectively, though in the neighborhood. So far as Kaline goes, he was more spectacular though perhaps not quite as consistent. He started slowly and Kaline started fast which might account for the difference. He has a much larger persona than many players who are arguably statically better than he.

[JustinD]

I thought the OPs original thoughts were geared toward the collecting universe not stats.

Stats arguments and comparisons are rarely concrete or objective. It's mostly bar talk.

My comments were geared toward collector demand and collectability. Based on those parameters I don't think the others mentioned surpass Clemente. Parker is relegated to the dollar box and while here in Detroit, I can lay out a table of Kalines and sell them all, eBay sales do not match that demand. Clemente out paces Kaline sales by a country mile.

This that was said earlier is my experience:

Originally Posted by Johnny630 View Post
From my past experience over the last 10 years when a collector goes to sell his post war collection there are 3 guys he least wants to part with. This is how I gauge long term value.

1. Mantle
2. Jackie
3. Clemente

It’s a shame but people don’t have as hard of time letting go
Of Mays, Aaron, and Koufax.

[Johnny630]

Originally Posted by JustinD

I thought the OPs original thoughts were geared toward the collecting universe not stats.

Stats arguments and comparisons are rarely concrete or objective. It's mostly bar talk.

My comments were geared toward collector demand and collectability. Based on those parameters I don't think the others mentioned surpass Clemente. Parker is relegated to the dollar box and while here in Detroit, I can lay out a table of Kalines and sell them all, eBay sales do not match that demand. Clemente out paces Kaline sales by a country mile.

This that was said earlier is my experience:

Originally Posted by Johnny630 View Post
From my past experience over the last 10 years when a collector goes to sell his post war collection there are 3 guys he least wants to part with. This is how I gauge long term value.

1. Mantle
2. Jackie
3. Clemente

It’s a shame but people don’t have as hard of time letting go
Of Mays, Aaron, and Koufax.

+11
Yup I thought we were talking about collecting too.

Still a lot of cool stats that are blowing my mind.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by bbcard1

It is an interesting argument. It all really depends on how you define inner circle. Clemente would have a very good augment for the all time national league all star team, starting along side Mays and Aaron, especially if you move Musial to first and depending on your opinion and stand on Barry Bonds. Does that make him inner circle? OTOH, he probably would not be in the top 10 outfielder of all time if viewed objectively, though in the neighborhood. So far as Kaline goes, he was more spectacular though perhaps not quite as consistent. He started slowly and Kaline started fast which might account for the difference. He has a much larger persona than many players who are arguably statically better than he.

I would take Frank Robinson and possibly Ott over Clemente due to much more power.

[ls7plus]

A great big thanks for everyone taking the time to post their opinions. I am old enough to have seen and did see plenty of Mantle still in his prime in the very early '60's, along with Mays, Aaron, Koufax, Clemente and living in the Detroit area, a great deal of Kaline, who was a legend here, status wise at that time. With regard to one post above, Kaline is pretty well-remembered for his part in the '68 World Series. Tigers' manager Mayo Smith, knowing he needed a bit more to take on the very tough '68 Cardinals, moved Mickey Stanley from center field to shortstop (thereby relegating the excellent fielding, but no-hit Ray Oyler--.171 BA--to the bench) in order to get the aging Kaline's bat in the lineup (Northrup and Horton were in right and left, and both had excellent years) for his first and only World Series after he had been injured for the better part of the season. And Al did us proud, quite proud, hitting .379, and leading the Tigers in a World Series where the Bengals came back to win from a 3 games to one deficit.

I personally had both Kaline and Clemente in the middle tier of HOF'ers performance-wise, as objectively as I could ascertain them to be. But I have to admit that the preceding posts confirm my much more recent observations that Clemente has indeed become a legendary icon in the sport, and that metamorphisis isn't done yet!

The movie should be tremendous, and I also hope they title it, "21."

Thanks guys,

Larry

[71buc]

At the risk of sounding blasphemous I tend to discount pre-war players when having such debates. They didn't play night games, less travel, faced less specialized pitching, they were smaller, largely less athletic, and did not have to compete against others who were barred simply because of the color of their skin.

Today's baseball players are bigger, stronger, and faster. I think baseball today is better than it ever has been. Don't get me wrong, I love Clemente, and Hank Aaron. Nonetheless, If I was building a team today and could pick any player in baseball history I would take Mike Trout over both of them any day of the week.

[rhettyeakley]

Originally Posted by 71buc

At the risk of sounding blasphemous I tend to discount pre-war players when having such debates. They didn't play night games, less travel, faced less specialized pitching, they were smaller, largely less athletic, and did not have to compete against others who were barred simply because of the color of their skin.

Today's baseball players are bigger, stronger, and faster. I think baseball today is better than it ever has been. Don't get me wrong, I love Clemente, and Hank Aaron. Nonetheless, If I was building a team today and could pick any player in baseball history I would take Mike Trout over both of them any day of the week.

I disagree rather strongly but will not get too into that but I have absolutely no faith in the players of today being able to put up with anything the pre-war players had to deal with as far as playing conditions, travel by bus, pay, spit-balls, scuffed baseballs, getting cut when they struck out as much as they do today, etc, etc (in other words I believe the best of the past would excel more in today’s game than today’s guys would having to go back in time and play the old style)

Bigger and stronger are largely overrated in my opinion, otherwise we wouldn’t see players like Jose Altuve, Jean Segura and Dee Gordon being as good as they are.

[tschock]

Originally Posted by 71buc

Nonetheless, If I was building a team today and could pick any player in baseball history I would take Mike Trout over both of them any day of the week.

Yeah, and drop Alexander or Caesar into WWII (with their lack of knowledge and experience in the advancement of tools and tactics) and see how they would do.

[mechanicalman]

Originally Posted by ls7plus

A great big thanks for everyone taking the time to post their opinions. I am old enough to have seen and did see plenty of Mantle still in his prime in the very early '60's, along with Mays, Aaron, Koufax, Clemente and living in the Detroit area, a great deal of Kaline, who was a legend here, status wise at that time. With regard to one post above, Kaline is pretty well-remembered for his part in the '68 World Series. Tigers' manager Mayo Smith, knowing he needed a bit more to take on the very tough '68 Cardinals, moved Mickey Stanley from center field to shortstop (thereby relegating the excellent fielding, but no-hit Ray Oyler--.171 BA--to the bench) in order to get the aging Kaline's bat in the lineup (Northrup and Horton were in right and left, and both had excellent years) for his first and only World Series after he had been injured for the better part of the season. And Al did us proud, quite proud, hitting .379, and leading the Tigers in a World Series where the Bengals came back to win from a 3 games to one deficit.

I personally had both Kaline and Clemente in the middle tier of HOF'ers performance-wise, as objectively as I could ascertain them to be. But I have to admit that the preceding posts confirm my much more recent observations that Clemente has indeed become a legendary icon in the sport, and that metamorphisis isn't done yet!

The movie should be tremendous, and I also hope they title it, "21."

Thanks guys,

Larry

Great post, Larry. And Go Tigers!

[hcv123]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

I would take Frank Robinson and possibly Ott over Clemente due to much more power.

The Orioles took Robinson in 1971 and didn't do them enough good head to head against Clemente in 1971!

[Mark70Z]

Originally Posted by hcv123

The Orioles took Robinson in 1971 and didn't do them enough good head to head against Clemente in 1971!

The best team doesn’t always win . It did go 7 and the O’s should have won, in my view, that last game at home. A few mistakes cost the home team. We did score more runs in the ‘71 WS, but that doesn’t really count in baseball. Man, the Pirates has some great pitching that series coupled with some unexpected hero’s and then there was Clemente.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by rats60

In 22 seasons Kaline had 170 assists and had a TZR of 155. In 18 seasons Clemente had 266 assists and had a TZR of 204. No doubt that Kaline was one of the greatest defensive RF, but Clemente was in a class by himself.

How does Parker rate?

[71buc]

I saw Clemente play in person when I was 9. Wow I am getting old. I do remember being awed by his arm and generally everything else about him. I was also sitting with my father in the Kingdome right field bleachers during the 1979 All Star Game. I recall asking my Dad what he thought of Parker's two throws. He said, "Amazing, but Clemente's arm was better." My opinion is colored by a 9 year olds infatuation and a 55 year-old's memory. My father on the other hand witnessed Clemente's talents many times between 1955 and 1972 at both Forbes and Three Rivers. I have always considered my father to be a bright guy despite his love of Mickey Mantle so I will accept his assessment. Another barometer of Clemente's greatness is the fact that this discussion is occurring in the pre-war section of this site and no one has complained...yet.

[btcarfagno]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

How does Parker rate?

Parker had a great arm but his routes to balls in the air were often baffling. He was not a good fielder but his arm was terrific which helped make up for some of his other deficiencies.

The two best arms I can recall were Dwight Evans and Ellis Valentine.

[1963Topps Set]

Speaking of stats: Clemente was with two World Series winners (1960 / 1971) Kaline one (1968)

Clemente's lifetime batting average was .317 Kaline finished with .297.

Also Kaline won just one batting title to Clemente's four.

There is no doubt Clemente meant more to the Pirates then Kaline meant to the Tigers.