The illusion of an objective standard psa, sgc, bvg

[glchen]

One of the main points of grading isn't that they are always correct as they are human too, but that they are an objective third party. For example, when you have dealers selling their own raw cards, they will often more likely "overgrade" their cards because they are trying to sell them for more money. I'm not saying all dealers are dishonest. There are plenty of very honest dealers who accurately self-grade their raw cards. However, they may also have different standards on what is EX, what is Near Mint and so forth. With TPG's they are all supposed to grade according to the same standards and do not take a % of the sale when the cards transact.

[barrysloate]

Originally Posted by glchen

One of the main points of grading isn't that they are always correct as they are human too, but that they are an objective third party. For example, when you have dealers selling their own raw cards, they will often more likely "overgrade" their cards because they are trying to sell them for more money. I'm not saying all dealers are dishonest. There are plenty of very honest dealers who accurately self-grade their raw cards. However, they may also have different standards on what is EX, what is Near Mint and so forth. With TPG's they are all supposed to grade according to the same standards and do not take a % of the sale when the cards transact.

Sure, there are many dealers who might overgrade their cards, but shouldn't a savvy buyer be able to recognize this? If a restaurant consistently serves lousy food, their customers will go elsewhere. Likewise, a dealer who consistently overgrades might find it hard to get repeat business.

That said, a TPG can still provide a very valuable service, and that is to detect altered cards and keep them from being numerically graded. And that was the point of my question to Glyn, who has experience on the inside.

[glchen]

Originally Posted by barrysloate

Sure, there are many dealers who might overgrade their cards, but shouldn't a savvy buyer be able to recognize this? If a restaurant consistently serves lousy food, their customers will go elsewhere. Likewise, a dealer who consistently overgrades might find it hard to get repeat business.

The savvy buyers purchase the card, not the flip. However, TPG's allow those who don't trust their own grading expertise to buy cards and not feel that they will get ripped off.

[AGuinness]

Originally Posted by glchen

One of the main points of grading isn't that they are always correct as they are human too, but that they are an objective third party. For example, when you have dealers selling their own raw cards, they will often more likely "overgrade" their cards because they are trying to sell them for more money. I'm not saying all dealers are dishonest. There are plenty of very honest dealers who accurately self-grade their raw cards. However, they may also have different standards on what is EX, what is Near Mint and so forth. With TPG's they are all supposed to grade according to the same standards and do not take a % of the sale when the cards transact.

They are human, but my expectation is that they are completely accurate when it comes to a card being authentic - that is the primary and most important job they have to do. And that includes correctly identifying the card's basic attributes (set, etc. - that thread with the 68 Ryan labelled as a Venezuelan when it is so obviously NOT is truly embarrassing).

The grade part is opinion within the framework of the grading system the company has created. As long as they stick to that framework, I'll have an idea as to what they think the grade indicates, but that also does include some margin of error and room for disagreement.

[AGuinness]

Originally Posted by AGuinness

They are human, but my expectation is that they are completely accurate when it comes to a card being authentic - that is the primary and most important job they have to do. And that includes correctly identifying the card's basic attributes (set, etc. - that thread with the 68 Ryan labelled as a Venezuelan when it is so obviously NOT is truly embarrassing).

The grade part is opinion within the framework of the grading system the company has created. As long as they stick to that framework, I'll have an idea as to what they think the grade indicates, but that also does include some margin of error and room for disagreement.

And, of course, detecting alterations, evidence of trimming, etc. is job 1A.

[glchen]

Originally Posted by AGuinness

They are human, but my expectation is that they are completely accurate when it comes to a card being authentic - that is the primary and most important job they have to do. And that includes correctly identifying the card's basic attributes (set, etc. - that thread with the 68 Ryan labelled as a Venezuelan when it is so obviously NOT is truly embarrassing).

The grade part is opinion within the framework of the grading system the company has created. As long as they stick to that framework, I'll have an idea as to what they think the grade indicates, but that also does include some margin of error and room for disagreement.

They are accurate in that they provide you a guarantee. If you buy a PSA graded card, and it turns out the card inside is not authentic, PSA will reimburse you for the price you paid for the card. This is the rationale that TPG's charge higher grading fees for cards with higher declared values: they are on the hook for more if they are wrong.

They will similarly reimburse you if they are proven to have given a card a higher, incorrect grade. This point is usually much harder to prove as if you say will, this similar card that looks the same received a lower grade from you, the TPG will most likely still refuse to reimburse you. It has to be very, very obvious that the card is a misgrade. Saying all of that, I personally have gotten reimbursed before, so the system works in many cases.

You most likely will not get this kind of guarantee from a dealer or auction house that you purchase a raw card from.

Edit: if a TPG mis-labels a card like in the example above, they're not going to reimburse you for that. They will just give you a free reholder to correct the card designation on the flip.

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

Originally Posted by glchen

You most likely will not get this kind of guarantee from a dealer or auction house that you purchase a raw card from.

We're small potatoes but we do guarantee our raw cards will receive a numerical grade from SGC unless otherwise stated in the auction. After your purchase we directly submit the card to SGC if it comes back anything other than a number grade we refund your purchase price. I did this for years on Ebay as well using PSA but almost nobody took me up on it. At our auctions we submit tons of autographs and cards.

[Leon]

That is the correct expectation BUT all 3 big TPG's still make mistakes. So I would never blindly think something is 100% authentic because it is in one of those 3 TPG holders. That said, all of those TPGs stand behind their product fairly well. Most experienced collectors have seen fake cards in all of their holders. Not too many but it happens.

Originally Posted by AGuinness

They are human, but my expectation is that they are completely accurate when it comes to a card being authentic - that is the primary and most important job they have to do. And that includes correctly identifying the card's basic attributes (set, etc. - that thread with the 68 Ryan labelled as a Venezuelan when it is so obviously NOT is truly embarrassing).

The grade part is opinion within the framework of the grading system the company has created. As long as they stick to that framework, I'll have an idea as to what they think the grade indicates, but that also does include some margin of error and room for disagreement.

[bobbyw8469]

Originally Posted by Leon

That is the correct expectation BUT all 3 big TPG's still make mistakes. So I would never blindly think something is 100% authentic because it is in one of those 3 TPG holders. That said, all of those TPGs stand behind their product fairly well. Most experienced collectors have seen fake cards in all of their holders. Not too many but it happens.

I agree with this. BVG obviously graded a fake Seaver. I was at the card show in Raleigh, and saw "The Paper Boy" selling a fake Jordan rookie in an SGC holder. Yes, that colors were that off that anyone could tell.