Indians to remove chief Wahoo stating in 2019

darwinbulldog · #1 01-30-2018, 09:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

LOL! How typical! Disagree with someone on the other side and you should be banned...shut up...not allowed to speak. I didn't see that one coming

Banning people for making political comments is Leon's rule. You can look it up. I'd actually prefer more political discussions. But it does put Leon in a difficult and interesting position when you get a thread like this where, depending on one's definition, anywhere from 10% to 50% of the posts are political.

vintagetoppsguy · #2 01-30-2018, 09:47 AM

When I was a kid growing up, we played Cowboys and Indians.

If you're in favor of banning the Chief Wahoo logo, then why not the Oklahoma State Cowboys logo? Seriously, what's the difference?

Or as I previously mentioned, the Boston Celtics logo? Why is it that you're only concerned with the minority groups getting offended? Sounds like a double standard to me.

rainier2004 · #3 01-30-2018, 09:52 AM

David - The thing is Native Americans were nearly wiped out, they continued to be oppressed and struggle to present day. I don't think its about minority, its more about learning to respect this group in general. Sure the cowboy logo looks silly, but I don't remember cowboys being treated the same way in the past as Native Americans were and are today having families ripped apart and "socialized"...hell, most true cowboys still live today as they did some time ago.

Mutton Chop Yaz · #4 01-30-2018, 10:00 AM

Also, to correct an earlier assertion on this thread:

https://www.theringer.com/mlb/2018/1...ief-wahoo-logo

"Cleveland�s American League franchise adopted the nickname 'Indians' in 1915, after 14 years as the Blues, the Bronchos, or the Naps. The name was supposedly a tribute to Louis Sockalexis, a member of the Penobscot tribe who had played for the crosstown Cleveland Spiders from 1897 to 1899. It�d be curious if the team was named for a player who appeared in 94 games for a different franchise nearly 20 years prior, and, sure enough, contemporary newspaper coverage shows that naming the team the 'Indians' was never intended as much of a tribute."

frankbmd · #5 01-30-2018, 10:13 AM

How about the CLEVELAND LAKE EFFECT with Snowflake cheerleaders and white pompoms everywhere?

If you thought the Indians were upset, wait until the concept of snowflakes in July sinks in with the goreables.

Come to think of it, this name change might be more appropriate for the Cleveland Browns???

darwinbulldog · #6 01-30-2018, 10:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by frankbmd

How about the CLEVELAND LAKE EFFECT with Snowflake cheerleaders and white pompoms everywhere?

If you thought the Indians were upset, wait until the concept of snowflakes in July sinks in with the goreables.

Come to think of it, this name change might be more appropriate for the Cleveland Browns???

Or in tribute to the great passenger steamships that brought base ball fans to the shores of Lake Erie to watch the franchise in its early years, perhaps the Cleveland Steamers.

btcarfagno · #7 01-30-2018, 10:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by darwinbulldog

Or in tribute to the great passenger steamships that brought base ball fans to the shores of Lake Erie to watch the franchise in its early years, perhaps the Cleveland Steamers.

You just went there!!

Although the franchise certainly has earned that logo to be sure.

CollectingAmericasPastime · #8 01-30-2018, 10:00 AM

Let me come at this from a different, less angry and aggressive angle.

What is offensive about the modern Chief Wahoo? Is it the red skin? If so, would it still be offensive if the Indians went back to their vintage Chief Wahoo?

CollectingAmericasPastime · #9 01-30-2018, 11:30 AM

Still looking for answers to the following (reference post #79 for the image)...

Quote:

Originally Posted by KMayUSA6060

Let me come at this from a different, less angry and aggressive angle.

What is offensive about the modern Chief Wahoo? Is it the red skin? If so, would it still be offensive if the Indians went back to their vintage Chief Wahoo?

darwinbulldog · #10 01-30-2018, 11:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by KMayUSA6060

Still looking for answers to the following (reference post #79 for the image)...

I suspect that's because you're assuming that it's either the color or the shape, or at least because your wording is instructing people to choose one or the other. There's no reason that you can't have an image more than one of whose features is offensive to a particular group.

CollectingAmericasPastime · #11 01-30-2018, 11:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by darwinbulldog

I suspect that's because you're assuming that it's either the color or the shape, or at least because your wording is instructing people to choose one or the other. There's no reason that you can't have an image more than one of whose features is offensive to a particular group.

If it's not the color OR the shape, then what's offensive about it?

Bpm0014 · #12 01-30-2018, 11:57 AM

I'd scan and post some of the old anti-Irish cartoons, but I'd probably be banned.

I'm almost full Irish and it wouldn't bother me one bit. I know what my ancestors went through when they arrived here. They were (almost) the lowest of the low at one time. But the Irish have a great sense of humor; almost morbid at times.

t206fix · #13 01-30-2018, 02:27 PM

nevermind

t206fix · #14 01-30-2018, 02:29 PM

xxx

CollectingAmericasPastime · #15 01-30-2018, 02:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by t206fix

OK, I'll bite...

It is offensive because this is not what real Indians look like. Simple as that. How do I know?

This is my grandpa - a Pawnee Indian - from 1944 right before he served in WWII (the man to the right of the officer in blue). Kyle, does he look at all like the goofy-assed looking Indian in the Cleveland logo at all? He was a great man with a great smile, and it never looked like that dumb Chief Wahoo smile.

First of all, a big thank you to your grandpa for his service.

Second of all, he doesn't look like the Indians in the Seminoles', Blackhawks', Redskins', etc., logos, either. So where's the outrage over those?

Third of all, many people LOVE Chief Wahoo for his friendly smile. I've never heard it or him described as "goofy-assed".

vintagetoppsguy · #16 01-30-2018, 03:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by t206fix

It is offensive because this is not what real Indians look like.

It's NOT supposed to be what real Indians look like. It's called a caricature, see below.

Do you think sailors really look like Popeye?
Did cavemen really looked like Fred Flintstone?

We all know who this is supposed to be, I don't even have to say the name. Do you really, honestly think he finds it offensive?

This discussion has really gotten ridiculous.

ronniehatesjazz · #17 01-30-2018, 10:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rainier2004

David - The thing is Native Americans were nearly wiped out, they continued to be oppressed and struggle to present day. I don't think its about minority, its more about learning to respect this group in general. Sure the cowboy logo looks silly, but I don't remember cowboys being treated the same way in the past as Native Americans were and are today having families ripped apart and "socialized"...hell, most true cowboys still live today as they did some time ago.

So true, no one mutters the word redneck nowadays (perhaps not totally directed towards "cowboys" but basically is). Please man, this is the one group that it's totally okay to make fun of in society today and face no negative consequences. The white working class and particularly the types who take on a "country" persona are the scapegoats of the white upper middleclass and beyond. It really is disgusting that people can hold such views and not realize the hypocrisy. My angst is totally directed at you but just the overall mindset of this in general.

Rookiemonster · #18 01-30-2018, 10:25 AM

It�s not a perfect world. I doubt that all native Americans feel offended about this. I don�t think this helps native Americans with what they had happen to them. What if the renamed the team the Cleveland Natives and had a more friendly logo. That might be a more progressive move.

There are many many types of people that have these small racial issues that they put up with.
I�m a mixed person genetically I have Irish, Italian, and Romani ( gypsy ) on both sides.

Growing up I had to see kids come to school dress up a gypsys ! Would it be ok to see kids come to school dressed as Jews or Africans ? I think not !

I hear people say I got GYPED Alll the time which is very racist and it bothers me to hear it. But guess what, people say it like it�s nothing. Is it ok to say you got Jewed?

Do I lose sleep over this ? No, if it all stopped tomorrow would my life be better . Nope.

Forget about the Irish and Italian side of my family. It�s very common for people say something about either one as well. But it seems that only a select few get to the PC world protect them.

orly57 · #19 01-30-2018, 10:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ronniehatesjazz

So true, no one mutters the word redneck nowadays (perhaps not totally directed towards "cowboys" but basically is). Please man, this is the one group that it's totally okay to make fun of in society today and face no negative consequences. The white working class and particularly the types who take on a "country" persona are the scapegoats of the white upper middleclass and beyond. It really is disgusting that people can hold such views and not realize the hypocrisy. My angst is totally directed at you but just the overall mindset of this in general.

You are 100% right on this. It bothers me to no end when African American comedians mock white people and it's totally ok. I think that reverse racism is part of the reason that so many white men are angry at the PC Police. But that shouldn't blind us to the fact that it's not cool to make fun of other cultures...especially those with the ugly history that the native Americans have. They don't have the Jesse Jackson's of the world fighting for them, but it doesn't make them any less worthy of the same considerations as we give African Americans.

CollectingAmericasPastime · #20 01-30-2018, 10:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rainier2004

David - The thing is Native Americans were nearly wiped out, they continued to be oppressed and struggle to present day. I don't think its about minority, its more about learning to respect this group in general. Sure the cowboy logo looks silly, but I don't remember cowboys being treated the same way in the past as Native Americans were and are today having families ripped apart and "socialized"...hell, most true cowboys still live today as they did some time ago.

Debatable. What happened to the Native Americans was atrocious, more violent, and blatant, but comparisons can be drawn. Between government overreach, regulations, land grabs, etc., "cowboys" have been forced to socialize to an extent. I would definitely argue that they cannot live today as they did some time ago, with the constant war on the 2nd Amendment/firearms, regulations on farming, taxes, and land grabs. Look no further than the Bundy's and their dispute with the government land grab. Like I said, it's not as broad, violent, or blatant, but comparisons are there. I identify more as a "country" person, with lots of my friends sharing that in common. None of us find the term "redneck" as offensive, and actually use it quite often ourselves, despite its intended derogatory origins/nature. Maybe we should choose to find it offensive and raise hell?

The point of bringing up the Cowboys', Celtics', and Notre Dame logos is if we look hard enough, we can find offense in all aspects of life, regardless of demographic size.

By the way, how was it ok for Bomani Jones, or whatever the hell his name is from ESPN, to wear a Caucasians shirt in response to Chief Wahoo?

btcarfagno · #21 01-30-2018, 10:20 AM

From what I have read, the logo will still be available on merchandise in places like the team store, so it won't disappear completely.

I have mixed feelings on this one.

As a Libertarian, this seems to be an internal issue within the framework of major league baseball. If they feel the need to step in, that is a business decision and they are free to make it...letting any consequences be as they may based on free market forces (such as they are in America circa 2018 anyway). I am also all for any aggrieved group banding together of their own free will to try to have changes implemented that said group feels would be of benefit to them. More power to them.

As a person with some indigenous ancestry, I know that there are much larger issues facing the Native American population, much of which was forced upon them and has now metastasized into several generations of internal issues and generally poor decision making. I don't think it should be overly political to believe that offering sympathy and a hand up to them would be a good and humane idea for our fellow Americans. That said, if they feel that minor (in the grand scheme of things) issues such as this are worthy of their time and effort, I suppose I can get behind that. At the same time, with the myriad of other issues within their community, I also can't shake the feeling that some may be better served putting on their big boy and big girls pants and tackling some more important and fundamental issues to their longer term success as a people.

As a Pirates fan, we seem to change our logo about as often as a Kardashian rolls out a new product line. In that context, I can't really empathize with Cleveland fans who have had variations of the same logo for generations.

Basically I am all over the map on this one and have thoughts that both agree and disagree with pretty much everyone. Hell. I agree and disagree with my own thoughts on this.

Hope that clears this up for everyone then.

z28jd · #22 01-30-2018, 10:32 AM

As someone with native American blood, who has a bunch of older relatives who grew up with the person it all came from, I can tell you that not one of them are offended by these logos. They are proud of their family history. As many have mentioned with the Notre Dame symbol, these same people are half Irish and they have never been offended by that symbol, or the mascot, or the Celtics. They just don't get offended by team logos, especially not ones from a long time ago and they certainly aren't going to sit there and be told what offends them. If those people who grew up with that history and have twice as much Native American blood as I do don't care, then why should I try to find something that isn't there. The Indians and the Fighting Irish aren't sitting there spreading hate with those symbols and common sense people realize that.

I know where the names came from from for the teams and the history behind the symbols, so it doesn't bother me. Of course, no one in my family wakes up ready to find out what someone tells them to be offended over each day, so maybe those people with no ammo in the conversation should listen to those who do.

I personally don't care what they decide to do with it. Teams change logos all of the time. They could have changed it and not even given a reason.

Orioles1954 · #23 01-30-2018, 10:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by z28jd

As someone with native American blood, who has a bunch of older relatives who grew up with the person it all came from, I can tell you that not one of them are offended by these logos. They are proud of their family history. As many have mentioned with the Notre Dame symbol, these same people are half Irish and they have never been offended by that symbol, or the mascot, or the Celtics. They just don't get offended by team logos, especially not ones from a long time ago and they certainly aren't going to sit there and be told what offends them. If those people who grew up with that history and have twice as much Native American blood as I do don't care, then why should I try to find something that isn't there. The Indians and the Fighting Irish aren't sitting there spreading hate with those symbols and common sense people realize that.

I know where the names came from from for the teams and the history behind the symbols, so it doesn't bother me. Of course, no one in my family wakes up ready to find out what someone tells them to be offended over each day, so maybe those people with no ammo in the conversation should listen to those who do.

I personally don't care what they decide to do with it. Teams change logos all of the time. They could have changed it and not even given a reason.

Makes no difference to me if 0.01% or 99.9% of group XYZ agrees with a logo or not. Public opinion polls are poor indicators of what's right or wrong.

vintagetoppsguy · #24 01-30-2018, 10:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Orioles1954

Public opinion polls are poor indicators of what's right or wrong.

What is a good indicator of what's right or wrong? Just because you say it is?

cincyredlegs · #25 01-30-2018, 11:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Orioles1954

Makes no difference to me if 0.01% or 99.9% of group XYZ agrees with a logo or not. Public opinion polls are poor indicators of what's right or wrong.

With societal issues, what's right or wrong is also a personal opinion. Typically changes take place when the majority of society decides to change it.

Now, a small minority of people are trying to make changes for the majority and if you don't agree with them you are vilified and condemned.

I would love to find the data that supports the majority of Cleveland, MLB fans or the US want to make this change or are offended by it.

Big Six · #26 01-30-2018, 11:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rainier2004

David - The thing is Native Americans were nearly wiped out, they continued to be oppressed and struggle to present day. I don't think its about minority, its more about learning to respect this group in general. Sure the cowboy logo looks silly, but I don't remember cowboys being treated the same way in the past as Native Americans were and are today having families ripped apart and "socialized"...hell, most true cowboys still live today as they did some time ago.

To your way of thinking, though, the Cowboys are largely responsible for what happened to the Indians, no?

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

rainier2004 · #27 01-30-2018, 04:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Big Six

To your way of thinking, though, the Cowboys are largely responsible for what happened to the Indians, no?

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I never said that so no.

smokelessjoe · #28 01-30-2018, 05:18 PM

Walter Veach

1. Choctaw
2. Soldier / Code Talker
3. Base Ball Player
4. Hero

darwinbulldog · #29 01-30-2018, 10:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

When I was a kid growing up, we played Cowboys and Indians.

If you're in favor of banning the Chief Wahoo logo, then why not the Oklahoma State Cowboys logo? Seriously, what's the difference?

Or as I previously mentioned, the Boston Celtics logo? Why is it that you're only concerned with the minority groups getting offended? Sounds like a double standard to me.

I'll give you the benefit of the doubt that you want a sincere response. Here you go.

If our nation's cowboys have been systematically oppressed by the non-cowboys in political power and are hurt by their representation in logos with crude caricatures of them then certainly changing that logo would be a nice thing to do. Otherwise it's not causing any harm so it might as well be left alone. That is the standard I would propose for all of these cases -- not a double-standard, just a standard.

I am primarily Irish, so I'll go ahead and speak as a representative of that particular historically oppressed minority. Irish-Americans were already in power in Boston by the time that logo was created, and my guess is that's why it isn't upsetting to the community. It is a representation of their fan base rather than of some other minority group that could be caricatured for fun. Personally it bothers me that they pronounce it Seltics rather than Celtics, but at least the spelling of the name is fine.

If, on the other hand, you had an English soccer team in the 1800s named the Irish and using this mascot, that would be different with regards to the standard I mentioned in the first paragraph.

steve B · #30 01-30-2018, 11:18 AM

That one is actually rather tame compared to some I have in old magazines.

Quote:

Originally Posted by darwinbulldog

I'll give you the benefit of the doubt that you want a sincere response. Here you go.

If our nation's cowboys have been systematically oppressed by the non-cowboys in political power and are hurt by their representation in logos with crude caricatures of them then certainly changing that logo would be a nice thing to do. Otherwise it's not causing any harm so it might as well be left alone. That is the standard I would propose for all of these cases -- not a double-standard, just a standard.

I am primarily Irish, so I'll go ahead and speak as a representative of that particular historically oppressed minority. Irish-Americans were already in power in Boston by the time that logo was created, and my guess is that's why it isn't upsetting to the community. It is a representation of their fan base rather than of some other minority group that could be caricatured for fun. Personally it bothers me that they pronounce it Seltics rather than Celtics, but at least the spelling of the name is fine.

If, on the other hand, you had an English soccer team in the 1800s named the Irish and using this mascot, that would be different with regards to the standard I mentioned in the first paragraph.

darwinbulldog · #31 01-30-2018, 11:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by steve B

That one is actually rather tame compared to some I have in old magazines.

I don't own any of those magazines myself, but I took a history class on Irish immigration to the U.S. (from a professor who was an Irish immigrant to the U.S.), and I saw quite a few that semester that I would say make the one I posted look rather tame.

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