Indians to remove chief Wahoo stating in 2019

[CollectingAmericasPastime]

Still looking for answers to the following (reference post #79 for the image)...

Originally Posted by KMayUSA6060

Let me come at this from a different, less angry and aggressive angle.

What is offensive about the modern Chief Wahoo? Is it the red skin? If so, would it still be offensive if the Indians went back to their vintage Chief Wahoo?

[darwinbulldog]

Originally Posted by KMayUSA6060

Still looking for answers to the following (reference post #79 for the image)...

I suspect that's because you're assuming that it's either the color or the shape, or at least because your wording is instructing people to choose one or the other. There's no reason that you can't have an image more than one of whose features is offensive to a particular group.

[CollectingAmericasPastime]

Originally Posted by darwinbulldog

I suspect that's because you're assuming that it's either the color or the shape, or at least because your wording is instructing people to choose one or the other. There's no reason that you can't have an image more than one of whose features is offensive to a particular group.

If it's not the color OR the shape, then what's offensive about it?

[darwinbulldog]

Originally Posted by KMayUSA6060

If it's not the color OR the shape, then what's offensive about it?

I suppose capitalization is clearer than italics. The answer you're looking for is "the color AND the shape."

[CollectingAmericasPastime]

Originally Posted by darwinbulldog

I suppose capitalization is clearer than italics. The answer you're looking for is "the color AND the shape."

Whoa whoa whoa. You can't have "AND" in there, when they are completely different logos. The modern Chief Wahoo is "red" and the vintage Chief Wahoo sports a shape and skin color that is commonly seen with other, more realistic Native American-inspired logos, for example the Chicago Blackhawks and Washington Redskins, neither of which have much controversy (or any at all) around their logos.

[Louieman]

My two cents, glad to see it removed. These discussions are meant to be complicated and nuanced, and it's something we need way more of, instead of the sensationalism-driven shouting match you see on the news. The way I see it, it's the least that can be done, given the history of how the Natives were treated from Columbus onward. It's not going to do much, but it's the right thing to do and it helps just a little bit.

I generally believe that those who see this as a pc issue or as something irksome to their livelihood are most likely coming from a place where you have the privilege to see it like that. For many minorities, the effects of oppression are experienced daily, where it smacks you in the face. It's not subtle. More importantly, it's ingrained within the history and the institution of the country itself, where to this day this oppression persists. Take for example, housing value appropriation.

But this is not to say that if you're a middle class middle aged white male, your life isn't hard. That's not what Black Lives Matter or protesters who point out Chief Wahoo are trying to do. It's about exposing the actual history behind how things came to be in this country, and when you consider that history and see what brought it to this point, it is important to expose it and point it out, so that we do something about it to change it for the better. Because I honestly think if people could see that story, they'd be happy to help improve things.

[mechanicalman]

Originally Posted by KMayUSA6060

Whoa whoa whoa. You can't have "AND" in there, when they are completely different logos. The modern Chief Wahoo is "red" and the vintage Chief Wahoo sports a shape and skin color that is commonly seen with other, more realistic Native American-inspired logos, for example the Chicago Blackhawks and Washington Redskins, neither of which have much controversy (or any at all) around their logos.

Ok, I’ll play Kyle.

I looked at both the modern and vintage logos. As a run of the mill white dude, they do not OFFEND me, per se. The impression I get, however, from those logos is that Native Americans, (no, wait, Indians) are ugly, goofy, clowns not to be taken seriously. They seem to marginalize, and not honor, people of Native American descent like my wife, whom I find to be beautiful.

In my opinion, I don’t think it’s wrong to reference Native American tribes like the Blackhawks or Seminoles so long as the visual expression truly honors the people and does not portray an unflattering caricature.

[drcy]

Originally Posted by mechanicalman

Ok, I’ll play Kyle.

I looked at both the modern and vintage logos. As a run of the mill white dude, they do not OFFEND me, per se. The impression I get, however, from those logos is that Native Americans, (no, wait, Indians) are ugly, goofy, clowns not to be taken seriously. They seem to marginalize, and not honor, people of Native American descent like my wife, whom I find to be beautiful.

In my opinion, I don’t think it’s wrong to reference Native American tribes like the Blackhawks or Seminoles so long as the visual expression truly honors the people and does not portray an unflattering caricature.

I don't want to wade into this divisive debate, but I tend to agree with this point of view. Not that I profess to have any special philosophical or moral insight into this topic, and am a Nordic-American from the Midwest.

To be honest, I've found the lame mascots to be such as the Lions and Tigers in Detroit-- not only are there no lions and tigers in Michigan (sans Zoo), but they lack imagination. And, of course, there are the now geographical oxymorons such as the Los Angeles Lakers and Arizona Cardinals, which aren't lame so much as funny.

[darwinbulldog]

Originally Posted by KMayUSA6060

Whoa whoa whoa. You can't have "AND" in there, when they are completely different logos. The modern Chief Wahoo is "red" and the vintage Chief Wahoo sports a shape and skin color that is commonly seen with other, more realistic Native American-inspired logos, for example the Chicago Blackhawks and Washington Redskins, neither of which have much controversy (or any at all) around their logos.

You have made two points worth repeating.

1) Because more than one logo exists it isn't possible for one of them to have more than one feature that is offensive. Got that, everyone?

2) The two logos below sport the same shape and skin color. Truly you have a dizzying intellect.

[Jeffrompa]

I love it

[Bpm0014]

I'd scan and post some of the old anti-Irish cartoons, but I'd probably be banned.

I'm almost full Irish and it wouldn't bother me one bit. I know what my ancestors went through when they arrived here. They were (almost) the lowest of the low at one time. But the Irish have a great sense of humor; almost morbid at times.

[t206fix]

nevermind

[t206fix]

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[CollectingAmericasPastime]

Originally Posted by t206fix

Or if you want a "vintage" Indian, why not choose a logo that is badass, like this one of Buffalo Bull (Pawnee, of course).

Can't. Doesn't look like your father, grandfather, or great grandmother.

[CollectingAmericasPastime]

Originally Posted by t206fix

This is my father (and grandfather) - a Pawnee/Shoshone Indian - from the early 80s. He died in 2000. He was a great man. Does he resemble Chief Wahoo in the slightest? What do you think real Indians look like?

I think they look like everything you've posted. I think there's a wide variety of what Native Americans look like, much like black people don't look the same, white people don't look the same, etc.

I guess I just have the ability to look at a caricature - something I've had done on myself and haven't been offended by - and separate it from reality and anything offensive. This goes back to my original post in this thread, which mentions how little credit you who oppose Chief Wahoo are giving those who like Chief Wahoo. Do you think we look at the logo and say, "look at that red-skinned Indian right there; boy does he sure make Native Americans look weird"? Hell no. Actually, I've never associated the color of Chief Wahoo to mean anything more than someone chose the color red because a red/white/blue color scheme is easy. As far as the shape, I was born in '94; when I was little Chief Wahoo was an easy logo to love as a kid because he's smiling and cartoonish. Never once did I think all Indians shared all of the features of Chief Wahoo.

[CollectingAmericasPastime]

Originally Posted by t206fix

OK, I'll bite...

It is offensive because this is not what real Indians look like. Simple as that. How do I know?

This is my grandpa - a Pawnee Indian - from 1944 right before he served in WWII (the man to the right of the officer in blue). Kyle, does he look at all like the goofy-assed looking Indian in the Cleveland logo at all? He was a great man with a great smile, and it never looked like that dumb Chief Wahoo smile.

First of all, a big thank you to your grandpa for his service.

Second of all, he doesn't look like the Indians in the Seminoles', Blackhawks', Redskins', etc., logos, either. So where's the outrage over those?

Third of all, many people LOVE Chief Wahoo for his friendly smile. I've never heard it or him described as "goofy-assed".

[vintagetoppsguy]

Originally Posted by t206fix

It is offensive because this is not what real Indians look like.

It's NOT supposed to be what real Indians look like. It's called a caricature, see below.

Do you think sailors really look like Popeye?
Did cavemen really looked like Fred Flintstone?

We all know who this is supposed to be, I don't even have to say the name. Do you really, honestly think he finds it offensive?



This discussion has really gotten ridiculous.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

It's NOT supposed to be what real Indians look like. It's called a caricature, see below.

Do you think sailors really look like Popeye?
Did cavemen really looked like Fred Flintstone?

We all know who this is supposed to be, I don't even have to say the name. Do you really, honestly think he finds it offensive?



This discussion has really gotten ridiculous.

Big difference between caricaturing an individual public figure and a whole group/race.

[vintagetoppsguy]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Big difference between caricaturing an individual public figure and a whole group/race.

Sure

[barrysloate]

Would anybody care if the New York Jets or the Pittsburgh Penguins wanted to change their logos? It wouldn't elicit a peep from anyone. Companies change their logos all the time to make them more current or to improve their look.

I'm not personally offended by Chief Wahoo. Fact is, I don't care one way or the other if it stays or goes. But it's kind of old-fashioned and could definitely stand an updating. But because changing it touches on subjects like racism and political correctness, it's gotten everyone in a dizzy. It's just another sign of what's wrong with America today. The logo is just a minor part of it.

This thread has turned into a cesspool and I hate all the insulting, especially the word snowflake. Now that I find offensive. Doesn't anyone know how to have a dialogue anymore?

I also want to say Kyle May wrote one of the funniest lines I've seen on the board in a long time: "Is the Phillie Phanatic insulting to the lethargic?" Now that's a classic!

[Orioles1954]

Originally Posted by barrysloate

Would anybody care if the New York Jets or the Pittsburgh Penguins wanted to change their logos? It wouldn't elicit a peep from anyone. Companies change their logos all the time to make them more current or to improve their look.

I'm not personally offended by Chief Wahoo. Fact is, I don't care one way or the other if it stays or goes. But it's kind of old-fashioned and could definitely stand an updating. But because changing it touches on subjects like racism and political correctness, it's gotten everyone in a dizzy. It's just another sign of what's wrong with America today. The logo is just a minor part of it.

This thread has turned into a cesspool and I hate all the insulting, especially the word snowflake. Now that I find offensive. Doesn't anyone know how to have a dialogue anymore?

I also want to say Kyle May wrote one of the funniest lines I've seen on the board in a long time: "Is the Phillie Phanatic insulting to the lethargic?" Now that's a classic!

Social media has made intelligent dialogue an almost impossible proposition.

[CollectingAmericasPastime]

Originally Posted by barrysloate

I also want to say Kyle May wrote one of the funniest lines I've seen on the board in a long time: "Is the Phillie Phanatic insulting to the lethargic?" Now that's a classic!

Thank you, thank you. Argue with humor, and always keep em laughing.