100th anniversary of Black Sox Scandal next year.... time to let them into the Hall?

[Rascal1010]

Originally Posted by clydepepper

Steve- I don't think you're directing your comments correctly. The reason for Rose's ban is not because he bet on Baseball games, but that he bet on Baseball games on which he had inside information (injuries) or could take action (lineup changes) which could determine the outcome of those games.


I can see, regretfully, a time in the future when Baseball players are allowed to bet on games, but only with absolutely strict limitations on which games would be involved.

I was not addressing Pete Rose and why he was banned for life, I was only addressing the "Black Sox" and Joe Jackson in particular. The "Black Sox" did conspire with gamblers, some or part of the group did accept payment from the gamblers, and all that were "linked" to the conspiracy were given lifetime bans from the game of baseball.

What Pete Rose did was an entirely different situation, some would say not nearly as bad as throwing games, but at the end of the day MLB doesn't draw a clear set of distinctions between the two crimes against the game, but they are both lumped together punishable with a lifetime ban. At some point in time what Pete Rose did may be addressed differently in the rules, thus ending his ban.

Unfortunately, someday players may be allowed to bet on games, but I just don't see a day when the game of baseball makes it allowable for them to "conspire" to throw games, much less a World Series. I also do not foresee the Hall of Fame enshrining any of the involved Black Sox including Joe Jackson as not to remove any doubt that MLB and the Hall of Fame view what they did as one of the absolute worst crimes that was committed against the game of baseball. If throwing games is tolerable in any way shape or form in the game of baseball, then really what's the point of the game?

[shagrotn77]

I know he performed at an elite level in the 1919 WS, so if there truly is no evidence to suggest that Shoeless Joe threw games, and his only possible crime is not reporting the fix while it was going on, then I think it's time he gets the nod. Problem is, there probably is no way to know with certainty one way or the other at this point.

[sphere and ash]

Originally Posted by shagrotn77

I know he performed at an elite level in the 1919 WS, so if there truly is no evidence to suggest that Shoeless Joe threw games, and his only possible crime is not reporting the fix while it was going on, then I think it's time he gets the nod. Problem is, there probably is no way to know with certainty one way or the other at this point.

Jackson took a pillow case filled with $5,000. If he "performed at an elite level," it is because he left the dirty work to his co-conspirators, demonstrating that there is no honor among thieves. And the contention that he performed at an elite level is suspect. Christy Mathewson, watching from the stands, thought Jackson was throwing the World Series.

[dealme]

I don't have much objection to allowing Jackson and Rose into the HOF. I would say that the one "benefit" of the whole controversy surrounding the situation is that it keeps vintage baseball in the discussion.

I believe that someone on this board had mentioned that when the Cubs won the WS in 2016, it would more or less eliminate the talk of 1908, which in essence eliminates one more link to baseball's past history. I was somewhat skeptical at first, I've come to agree with that point of view.

So while that alone should not weigh into whether or not Jackson or Rose end up in Cooperstown, I view the continued discussion and controversy around the issue as a plus for preservation of baseball history.

Mark

[packs]

Isn't their place in pop culture secured by Eight Men Out?

[hysell]

I would also point out this fact ! We have a HOF in the Halls, that had a hand in this too ! He would be the cheap ass owner of the Whitesox { Charles Comiskey } ! Who would hold players out of games, so they wouldn't get a chance at there bonus ? Think it was 1 or 2 of his ace pitchers, he done this , too , I'm not sure on the players though ? Eddie Cicotte was 1 of those pitchers , who also had a fine career, how many more years did he have in his tank ? Could he also put up more HOFer stats ? I've also heard that Ty Cobb & Tris Speaker were found to be betting, years later ? Is this true ? If so, why were they NOT taken out of the HOF ?

[Mark70Z]

Players made the choice and knew the consequences yet did it anyway. Lifetime ban was the consequence.

[irishdenny]

Originally Posted by sphere and ash

Christy Mathewson, watching from the stands, thought Jackson was throwing the World Series.

As an Avid Mr Mathewson Fan, I've heard this before...
Only I have nevar been able to find Matty's words of "Printed Truth"!

Can You Point me in the RiGHT Direction?
Maybe You Remember where You came across this interesting bit of Information? Quoted iN a Book, Magazine Article, News Papar, etc...?
Is the statement directly from Mr. Mathewson or a 3rd Party that heard Matty Quote it or did He Know of Matty's Beliefs about Jackson WS Play?

imho, Mr. Jackson felt that he was finally part of a A$$ KickiN Team
and I Also believe and that led Him to feel a bit more obligated...
Which leads to the "Culpable Aspect"... ie, "Guilty by Association!"

I can only imagine that being uneducated, involved wit a host of Piranhas, the ending only meant that You were Chum fir the Sea...

It also seems to me that it wasn't much more than a Media Frenzy...
And "Heads had to Roll" ~

[darwinbulldog]

Originally Posted by irishdenny

As an Avid Mr Mathewson Fan, I've heard this before...
Only I have nevar been able to find Matty's words of "Printed Truth"!

Can You Point me in the RiGHT Direction?
Maybe You Remember where You came across this interesting bit of Information? Quoted iN a Book, Magazine Article, News Papar, etc...?
Is the statement directly from Mr. Mathewson or a 3rd Party that heard Matty Quote it or did He Know of Matty's Beliefs about Jackson WS Play?

imho, Mr. Jackson felt that he was finally part of a A$$ KickiN Team
and I Also believe and that led Him to feel a bit more obligated...
Which leads to the "Culpable Aspect"... ie, "Guilty by Association!"

I can only imagine that being uneducated, involved wit a host of Piranhas, the ending only meant that You were Chum fir the Sea...

It also seems to me that it wasn't much more than a Media Frenzy...
And "Heads had to Roll" ~

I learned about it via Ken Burns. Not sure what his source was, but you can start there and see if it leads back to a newspaper article or something.

[Jim65]

Joe Jackson in the HOF? Never.

When did a guy who disgraced the game and cheated his profession become a sympathetic figure?

[MattyC]

Those who know baseball know Shoeless Joe was as good or better a ball player than several in the HOF now— stats and on field performance are facts; HOF voting is a subjective process. I've found that the degree to which something gets turned into $%!@ is directly proportionate to the amount of human opinion and subjectivity involved. When I want to browse through the history of the game's greats, I sit back and peruse Baseball Reference, not the Hall Of Fame. Much in the same way, I don't let TPGs tell me what card is best or reviewers tell me what programs, films, or books to read.

[rats60]

Originally Posted by Jim65

Joe Jackson in the HOF? Never.

When did a guy who disgraced the game and cheated his profession become a sympathetic figure?

So I take it that you don't want Rose, Bonds, Clemens, Ortiz, A rod, etc. in the Hof. As far as Jackson, he never took money, set a record with 12 hits, was part of half of the Sox runs scored and made 0 errors. I don't see how he disgraced the game.

[sphere and ash]

[QUOTE=irishdenny;1743792]As an Avid Mr Mathewson Fan, I've heard this before...
Only I have nevar been able to find Matty's words of "Printed Truth"!

Can You Point me in the RiGHT Direction?
Maybe You Remember where You came across this interesting bit of Information? Quoted iN a Book, Magazine Article, News Papar, etc...?
Is the statement directly from Mr. Mathewson or a 3rd Party that heard Matty Quote it or did He Know of Matty's Beliefs about Jackson WS Play?

I believe this information comes via Hugh Fullerton. It may be referenced in Eight Men Out.

[rats60]

[QUOTE=sphere and ash;1744174]

Originally Posted by irishdenny

As an Avid Mr Mathewson Fan, I've heard this before...
Only I have nevar been able to find Matty's words of "Printed Truth"!

Can You Point me in the RiGHT Direction?
Maybe You Remember where You came across this interesting bit of Information? Quoted iN a Book, Magazine Article, News Papar, etc...?
Is the statement directly from Mr. Mathewson or a 3rd Party that heard Matty Quote it or did He Know of Matty's Beliefs about Jackson WS Play?

I believe this information comes via Hugh Fullerton. It may be referenced in Eight Men Out.

So did he think the guy who hit .226 with 1 RBI and 2 runs scored was throwing the World Series too?

[parker1b2]

a nice read on Jackson.

http://roadsidephotos.sabr.org/baseball/shoelessjoe.htm

From the article:
Myth: "Whereas the evidence shows that Jackson did not deliberately misplay during the 1919 World Series in an attempt to make his team lose the World Series."
The evidence is ambiguous at best. On the one hand, Jackson always swore that he had played to win, and his .375 batting average led both teams. On the other, Jackson hit .250 with one run scored and no RBI in the four thrown games, while batting .500 with four runs and six RBI in the other four. In each of the first two games, both of which were thrown, Jackson allowed a two-out, two-run triple to left field. And even if the evidence that Jackson actually threw the Series is equivocal, the evidence that he was paid to do so is overwhelming.