100th anniversary of Black Sox Scandal next year.... time to let them into the Hall?

[sphere and ash]

Originally Posted by shagrotn77

I know he performed at an elite level in the 1919 WS, so if there truly is no evidence to suggest that Shoeless Joe threw games, and his only possible crime is not reporting the fix while it was going on, then I think it's time he gets the nod. Problem is, there probably is no way to know with certainty one way or the other at this point.

Jackson took a pillow case filled with $5,000. If he "performed at an elite level," it is because he left the dirty work to his co-conspirators, demonstrating that there is no honor among thieves. And the contention that he performed at an elite level is suspect. Christy Mathewson, watching from the stands, thought Jackson was throwing the World Series.

[dealme]

I don't have much objection to allowing Jackson and Rose into the HOF. I would say that the one "benefit" of the whole controversy surrounding the situation is that it keeps vintage baseball in the discussion.

I believe that someone on this board had mentioned that when the Cubs won the WS in 2016, it would more or less eliminate the talk of 1908, which in essence eliminates one more link to baseball's past history. I was somewhat skeptical at first, I've come to agree with that point of view.

So while that alone should not weigh into whether or not Jackson or Rose end up in Cooperstown, I view the continued discussion and controversy around the issue as a plus for preservation of baseball history.

Mark

[packs]

Isn't their place in pop culture secured by Eight Men Out?

[hysell]

I would also point out this fact ! We have a HOF in the Halls, that had a hand in this too ! He would be the cheap ass owner of the Whitesox { Charles Comiskey } ! Who would hold players out of games, so they wouldn't get a chance at there bonus ? Think it was 1 or 2 of his ace pitchers, he done this , too , I'm not sure on the players though ? Eddie Cicotte was 1 of those pitchers , who also had a fine career, how many more years did he have in his tank ? Could he also put up more HOFer stats ? I've also heard that Ty Cobb & Tris Speaker were found to be betting, years later ? Is this true ? If so, why were they NOT taken out of the HOF ?

[Mark70Z]

Players made the choice and knew the consequences yet did it anyway. Lifetime ban was the consequence.

[conor912]

Originally Posted by Mark70Z

Players made the choice and knew the consequences yet did it anyway. Lifetime ban was the consequence.

Lifetime, not eternal.

[Brian Van Horn]

"100th anniversary of Black Sox Scandal next year.... time to let them into the Hall?"

Nope.

[irishdenny]

Originally Posted by sphere and ash

Christy Mathewson, watching from the stands, thought Jackson was throwing the World Series.

As an Avid Mr Mathewson Fan, I've heard this before...
Only I have nevar been able to find Matty's words of "Printed Truth"!

Can You Point me in the RiGHT Direction?
Maybe You Remember where You came across this interesting bit of Information? Quoted iN a Book, Magazine Article, News Papar, etc...?
Is the statement directly from Mr. Mathewson or a 3rd Party that heard Matty Quote it or did He Know of Matty's Beliefs about Jackson WS Play?

imho, Mr. Jackson felt that he was finally part of a A$$ KickiN Team
and I Also believe and that led Him to feel a bit more obligated...
Which leads to the "Culpable Aspect"... ie, "Guilty by Association!"

I can only imagine that being uneducated, involved wit a host of Piranhas, the ending only meant that You were Chum fir the Sea...

It also seems to me that it wasn't much more than a Media Frenzy...
And "Heads had to Roll" ~

[darwinbulldog]

Originally Posted by irishdenny

As an Avid Mr Mathewson Fan, I've heard this before...
Only I have nevar been able to find Matty's words of "Printed Truth"!

Can You Point me in the RiGHT Direction?
Maybe You Remember where You came across this interesting bit of Information? Quoted iN a Book, Magazine Article, News Papar, etc...?
Is the statement directly from Mr. Mathewson or a 3rd Party that heard Matty Quote it or did He Know of Matty's Beliefs about Jackson WS Play?

imho, Mr. Jackson felt that he was finally part of a A$$ KickiN Team
and I Also believe and that led Him to feel a bit more obligated...
Which leads to the "Culpable Aspect"... ie, "Guilty by Association!"

I can only imagine that being uneducated, involved wit a host of Piranhas, the ending only meant that You were Chum fir the Sea...

It also seems to me that it wasn't much more than a Media Frenzy...
And "Heads had to Roll" ~

I learned about it via Ken Burns. Not sure what his source was, but you can start there and see if it leads back to a newspaper article or something.

[Jim65]

Joe Jackson in the HOF? Never.

When did a guy who disgraced the game and cheated his profession become a sympathetic figure?

[MattyC]

Those who know baseball know Shoeless Joe was as good or better a ball player than several in the HOF now— stats and on field performance are facts; HOF voting is a subjective process. I've found that the degree to which something gets turned into $%!@ is directly proportionate to the amount of human opinion and subjectivity involved. When I want to browse through the history of the game's greats, I sit back and peruse Baseball Reference, not the Hall Of Fame. Much in the same way, I don't let TPGs tell me what card is best or reviewers tell me what programs, films, or books to read.

[packs]

I don't think Joe Jackson was all that much better than Harry Heilmann and it took Heilmann 20 years after he last played an MLB game to get in the Hall. In my opinion there was no guarantee he was getting in even with his career. In fact, I think the scandal was the best thing for his lasting relevance. No one has anything to say about Heilmann most of the time.

[hysell]

Thanks, Orlando nice piece ! Would seem WE have double standards in this matter, just like REAL LIFE ? I guess the apples don"t fall far from the tree, after all ?

[rats60]

Originally Posted by Jim65

Joe Jackson in the HOF? Never.

When did a guy who disgraced the game and cheated his profession become a sympathetic figure?

So I take it that you don't want Rose, Bonds, Clemens, Ortiz, A rod, etc. in the Hof. As far as Jackson, he never took money, set a record with 12 hits, was part of half of the Sox runs scored and made 0 errors. I don't see how he disgraced the game.

[Jim65]

Originally Posted by rats60

So I take it that you don't want Rose, Bonds, Clemens, Ortiz, A rod, etc. in the Hof..

No, I don't. Add Manny, Palmiero, McGwire and Sosa to that list.

[sphere and ash]

[QUOTE=irishdenny;1743792]As an Avid Mr Mathewson Fan, I've heard this before...
Only I have nevar been able to find Matty's words of "Printed Truth"!

Can You Point me in the RiGHT Direction?
Maybe You Remember where You came across this interesting bit of Information? Quoted iN a Book, Magazine Article, News Papar, etc...?
Is the statement directly from Mr. Mathewson or a 3rd Party that heard Matty Quote it or did He Know of Matty's Beliefs about Jackson WS Play?

I believe this information comes via Hugh Fullerton. It may be referenced in Eight Men Out.

[rats60]

[QUOTE=sphere and ash;1744174]

Originally Posted by irishdenny

As an Avid Mr Mathewson Fan, I've heard this before...
Only I have nevar been able to find Matty's words of "Printed Truth"!

Can You Point me in the RiGHT Direction?
Maybe You Remember where You came across this interesting bit of Information? Quoted iN a Book, Magazine Article, News Papar, etc...?
Is the statement directly from Mr. Mathewson or a 3rd Party that heard Matty Quote it or did He Know of Matty's Beliefs about Jackson WS Play?

I believe this information comes via Hugh Fullerton. It may be referenced in Eight Men Out.

So did he think the guy who hit .226 with 1 RBI and 2 runs scored was throwing the World Series too?

[parker1b2]

a nice read on Jackson.

http://roadsidephotos.sabr.org/baseball/shoelessjoe.htm

From the article:
Myth: "Whereas the evidence shows that Jackson did not deliberately misplay during the 1919 World Series in an attempt to make his team lose the World Series."
The evidence is ambiguous at best. On the one hand, Jackson always swore that he had played to win, and his .375 batting average led both teams. On the other, Jackson hit .250 with one run scored and no RBI in the four thrown games, while batting .500 with four runs and six RBI in the other four. In each of the first two games, both of which were thrown, Jackson allowed a two-out, two-run triple to left field. And even if the evidence that Jackson actually threw the Series is equivocal, the evidence that he was paid to do so is overwhelming.

[rats60]

Originally Posted by parker1b2

a nice read on Jackson.

http://roadsidephotos.sabr.org/baseball/shoelessjoe.htm

From the article:
Myth: "Whereas the evidence shows that Jackson did not deliberately misplay during the 1919 World Series in an attempt to make his team lose the World Series."
The evidence is ambiguous at best. On the one hand, Jackson always swore that he had played to win, and his .375 batting average led both teams. On the other, Jackson hit .250 with one run scored and no RBI in the four thrown games, while batting .500 with four runs and six RBI in the other four. In each of the first two games, both of which were thrown, Jackson allowed a two-out, two-run triple to left field. And even if the evidence that Jackson actually threw the Series is equivocal, the evidence that he was paid to do so is overwhelming.

If by overwhelming you mean zero. Jackson never received money to throw the Series. He was never part of any meeting. His only flaw was that his roommate was one of the key members of the fix who attempted to give Jackson some money after the fact which he refused.

If hitting .375 with 12 hits with 6 RBI and 5 Runs brings suspicion, what about the highest paid player on the team hitting .226 with 1 RBI and 2 Runs?

[packs]

Originally Posted by rats60

If by overwhelming you mean zero. Jackson never received money to throw the Series. He was never part of any meeting. His only flaw was that his roommate was one of the key members of the fix who attempted to give Jackson some money after the fact which he refused.

If hitting .375 with 12 hits with 6 RBI and 5 Runs brings suspicion, what about the highest paid player on the team hitting .226 with 1 RBI and 2 Runs?

Sorry but Joe Jackson admitted in grand jury testimony that he received $5,000 out of the $20,000 promised to him. I don't know where you got those facts from. Here is the transcript from the testimony that was given by Jackson himself:

Q: Did anybody pay you any money to help throw that series in favor of Cincinnati?

A: They did.

Q: How much did they pay?

A: They promised me $20,000, and paid me $5,000.

Q: Who promised you the twenty thousand?

A: “Chick Gandil.

Q: Who is Chick Gandil?

A. He was their first baseman on the White Sox Club.

Q: Who paid you the $5,000?

A: Left Williams brought it in my room and threw it down.

http://law2.umkc.edu/faculty/project...hoelessjoe.pdf