Another Probstein123 black eye

[drcy]

I wasn't singling out a seller or a particular auction (I haven't looked at the blowout thread or the images), and will leave it to situations of clear and convincing proof.

[rainier2004]

I think comparing Probstein to REA is both funny and sad. REA is not only the leading AH, they have also shown an immense amount of knowledge and integrity and if anyone knows Dwyer they know this is how he does things. He also has an immense knowledge as one of the leaders in the industry and his results show this.

Probstein is an ebay seller, like others said he is peddling PSAs opinion, not his own. It would be nice if he pulled it, but on what information? A bunch of guys are complaining but PSA graded it? My bet is will side with PSA 100 out of a 100 times as his business is built on this. This isn't war_eagle we are talking about, Probstein doesn't trim his cards and has never been accused of that. PSA let this get by, their warranty will be carried out at this point.

Probstein could pull it but PSA could also do a better job and never had this happen in the first place...you know, their job the premier TPG. Maybe Joe O. should focus more on training at this point than expanding his business part its current means. TPGs are far from perfect but that's not the standard we hold them to.

[slidekellyslide]

I think it’s pretty hilarious that a card with autographs of two of the greatest basketball players of all time on it is suddenly garbage because it’s now one millimeter shorter than it was yesterday. Not to say that trimming the card was an okay thing to do, I just hadn’t realized that those cards were actually given a grade beyond authenticating the autographs.

[pokerplyr80]

Originally Posted by slidekellyslide

I think it’s pretty hilarious that a card with autographs of two of the greatest basketball players of all time on it is suddenly garbage because it’s now one millimeter shorter than it was yesterday. Not to say that trimming the card was an okay thing to do, I just hadn’t realized that those cards were actually given a grade beyond authenticating the autographs.

Yea I agree with the sentiment here. I knew they could be graded, but wouldn't have thought the difference in value from 7 to 9 would justify trimming and resubmitting the card. The value of this card would seem to be the on card autos of Jordan and LeBron, plus the limited number at 25.

[CMIZ5290]

This is a subject that I said, and have said for years, was futile. Folks, it is, face it....Until Ebay gets off their asses and does something legally these threads against Mr. Big (Probstein) and PWCC are an absolute waste of time. Some people have posted responses about, "well, we can at least bring this to the attention of novice collectors and the hobby..." Really? Who gives a damn? These threads about these two were first posted when King Kong was a monkey.

[CMIZ5290]

Originally Posted by rainier2004

I think comparing Probstein to REA is both funny and sad. REA is not only the leading AH, they have also shown an immense amount of knowledge and integrity and if anyone knows Dwyer they know this is how he does things. He also has an immense knowledge as one of the leaders in the industry and his results show this.

Probstein is an ebay seller, like others said he is peddling PSAs opinion, not his own. It would be nice if he pulled it, but on what information? A bunch of guys are complaining but PSA graded it? My bet is will side with PSA 100 out of a 100 times as his business is built on this. This isn't war_eagle we are talking about, Probstein doesn't trim his cards and has never been accused of that. PSA let this get by, their warranty will be carried out at this point.

Probstein could pull it but PSA could also do a better job and never had this happen in the first place...you know, their job the premier TPG. Maybe Joe O. should focus more on training at this point than expanding his business part its current means. TPGs are far from perfect but that's not the standard we hold them to.

+1....Totally agree. To compare this guy with REA is an absolute joke.....

[CW]

To anyone surprised or amused by the REA/Probstein comparison:

Both companies are movers of high volumes of cards which are consigned to them by collectors. They may not react the same way, but they provide an identical service, albeit through different venues. They are counterparts. Comparisons will be made. Expectations will be set.

If one of those companies (REA) sets a standard of basic ethical practice in the business, it is not out of the ordinary to think that other auction houses should follow suit when an altered card is brought to their attention (ie. investigating and at least pulling the auction and returning the card to the consignor if the alteration is blatant).

Of course, other auction houses may not follow suit (Probstein, in this instance), but it is neither funny, sad, or an "absolute joke" to make the comparison and expect similar ethical business practices.

I am also not naive enough to think the above will happen, but as a consumer you can expect it. When it doesn't happen, then you complain or criticize which is why this thread was started.

And I just happened to use REA as an example. As another, when Goodwin was alerted about a possibly bad PSA graded '52 Mantle in one of their auctions, they sent it to PSA for review, found it to be a compromised slab, and they pulled the auction.

[rainier2004]

Originally Posted by CW

To anyone surprised or amused by the REA/Probstein comparison:

Both companies are movers of high volumes of cards which are consigned to them by collectors. They may not react the same way, but they provide an identical service, albeit through different venues. They are counterparts. Comparisons will be made. Expectations will be set.

If one of those companies (REA) sets a standard of basic ethical practice in the business, it is not out of the ordinary to think that other auction houses should follow suit when an altered card is brought to their attention (ie. investigating and at least pulling the auction and returning the card to the consignor if the alteration is blatant).

Of course, other auction houses may not follow suit (Probstein, in this instance), but it is neither funny, sad, or an "absolute joke" to make the comparison and expect similar ethical business practices.

I am also not naive enough to think the above will happen, but as a consumer you can expect it. When it doesn't happen, then you complain or criticize which is why this thread was started.

And I just happened to use REA as an example. As another, when Goodwin was alerted about a possibly bad PSA graded '52 Mantle in one of their auctions, they sent it to PSA for review, found it to be a compromised slab, and they pulled the auction.

I hear ya Chuck, I just think there are two camps forming on this issue. Yes REA and Probstein offer the same service but so does McDonalds and Gibsons Steakhouse. I would love if everyone in the hobby had the same standards, but they just don't, who gets to set these "standards"?

AHs ALL operate differently. One major AH n particular provides nuclear scans that are obviously tweaked and played with. Another major AH has a history of paying consignors very late and I have personally called and challenged a couple AHs on the authenticity and questionable alterations of CJs...I was told "who made you an expert" and they were not pulled or examined. One AH had over 20 people contact them about a CJ which wasn't pulled, examined, sent back in or anything...it just sold. What in the hell makes me an expert? Owning 1000 CJs? Spending hours upon hours educating myself? Developing a network of 100 people in the CJ world? Writing an extensive article delving into facts never discussed on the set? None of that makes me an expert, but it does make me trusted my the community. I have no more pull than Joe Schmo.

What separates AHs IMO is what THEY decide to do and how to handle things. People are willing to bid more with REA b/c they have an immense level of integrity and knowledge. You'll see cards go for more there than anywhere else as they set REAL records all the time. This is b/c of their leadership and the fact that they ca do this. REAs knowledge and integrity are unsurpassed in the hobby, end of story.

On the other end people avoid Probstein and PWCC b/c they shill and pull bullshit. They will not stand behind their cards and have been involved in some very questionable ethics. It is their choice what standards they set and they reap the consequences of those standards just like REA.

IMO Probstein is McDonalds...you will get crap. If you want to gamble and you want to take that risk than go ahead and every once in awhile you'll get a cold burger. AT this point of collecting and life the transaction is arguably worth more than the card to me and REA is Gibsons, they will guarantee your satisfaction and Dwyer will take care of you no questions asked.

The argument comes down to this for me:
1. Is the flip a product - absolutely
2. Do all AHs have the same standards - absolutely not
3. Do I get to choose where my money is spent - every day

Its all capitalism baby. Ill take REA all day, every day. Hell, I wont even spend money at the moment as I await their APRIL auction as they have the best stuff and Dwyer will take of me...no questions asked.

I really do enjoy the debate, I am sorry if I offend anyone as it is unintended and I think conversations like this are crucial to evolve our hobby we all love. I respect all of you guys and hope everyone has a great 2018.

[oldjudge]

REA is the only auction house who I have ever seen say that a slabbed card was overgraded. That was Rob, before Brian ever came on board. Rob set the tone. I can recall no other auction house, major or smaller, that has ever done anything similar. Most auctions have minimal descriptions that throw out a few ungrammatical adjectives and say little more than what is on the slab. REA is the exception; Probstein is the rule.

[CMIZ5290]

Originally Posted by oldjudge

REA is the only auction house who I have ever seen say that a slabbed card was overgraded. That was Rob, before Brian ever came on board. Rob set the tone. I can recall no other auction house, major or smaller, that has ever done anything similar. Most auctions have minimal descriptions that throw out a few ungrammatical adjectives and say little more than what is on the slab. REA is the exception; Probstein is the rule.

Well said...Do you think Rick Probstein would ever announce a card being over graded?? Let me eat this bar of soap....

[obcmac]

Originally Posted by rainier2004

AHs ALL operate differently. One major AH n particular provides nuclear scans that are obviously tweaked and played with. Another major AH has a history of paying consignors very late and I have personally called and challenged a couple AHs on the authenticity and questionable alterations of CJs...I was told "who made you an expert" and they were not pulled or examined. One AH had over 20 people contact them about a CJ which wasn't pulled, examined, sent back in or anything...it just sold. What in the hell makes me an expert? Owning 1000 CJs? Spending hours upon hours educating myself? Developing a network of 100 people in the CJ world? Writing an extensive article delving into facts never discussed on the set? None of that makes me an expert, but it does make me trusted my the community. I have no more pull than Joe Schmo.

I would be interested to hear the auction house that disregarded your opinion on the CJ's. Why not post it (again...if I missed it the first time)?