Another Probstein123 black eye

[MattyC]

So despite all the Blowout Sturm und Drang, the facts seem to be: a trimmed card got past the goalie and wound up in a slab, and then on eBay.

I think as some have rightly and calmly pointed out here, to rectify this situation PSA should be contacted, and if they feel the card is a mistake, they will contact the seller, who will pull it. They also have a policy in place which allows for the buyer of the trimmed card to be reimbursed.

Seems pretty straightforward to me, in terms of how to rationally handle the situation. I don't know about a "black eye" for a high volume internet seller for merely listing the item; I don't do that for a living, yet I don't expect someone in that position to scrutinize this particular card for trimming, or somehow decide to track down a scan of the card in a prior holder, and find the trim job. It seems like a flat out mistake by the grader, and human error happens. When it does, if there's a path and process to correct it, we simply should walk that path and then see if we achieve a solution. If I were the seller I would contact PSA and initiate the process.

[Exhibitman]

I’m with Probstein on this one. If PSA screwed up PSA needs to fix it. Probstein is selling PSA’s opinion, not his own.

[3-2-count]

Originally Posted by Exhibitman

I’m with Probstein on this one. If PSA screwed up PSA needs to fix it. Probstein is selling PSA’s opinion, not his own.

Agree 100%. Think of it this way. If buyers place the responsibility on the seller to handle and correct the mishaps which PSA misses such as the likes we see in this case, it would be a full time job to police with as many that reside in their slabs.

[edhans]

Originally Posted by 3-2-count

Agree 100%. Think of it this way. If buyers place the responsibility on the seller to handle and correct the mishaps which PSA misses such as the likes we see in this case, it would be a full time job to police with as many that reside in their slabs.

Strongly disagree, Tony. We sell cards, not some third party's opinion of them. The product is the card inside, not the plastic slab with a little slip of paper inside it. Anyone selling cards (dealer or auction house) should have sufficient knowledge about the products that he sells and back it up with a guarantee, third party opinion notwithstanding. TPGs make mistakes regularly. In an extreme case, if a dealer sells a graded card that proves to be counterfeit, I believe the courts would hold the seller, not the grader, responsible for damages.

[rainier2004]

Originally Posted by edhans

Strongly disagree, Tony. We sell cards, not some third party's opinion of them. The product is the card inside, not the plastic slab with a little slip of paper inside it. Anyone selling cards (dealer or auction house) should have sufficient knowledge about the products that he sells and back it up with a guarantee, third party opinion notwithstanding. TPGs make mistakes regularly. In an extreme case, if a dealer sells a graded card that proves to be counterfeit, I believe the courts would hold the seller, not the grader, responsible for damages.

You've been around the hobby for some Ed, like myself and plenty of others here. We started by holding, feeling and even smelling cards and learning how to detect alterations and fakes as a right of passage into the hobby. But Ill will disagree that the product isn't the flip now, I love raw cards, but the reality is TPGs lowered that barrier of entry significantly. That flip is the commodity, people pay huge premiums for higher graded cards even if the grade isn't warranted...some people just don't care what the card looks like, its all about that flip. It allowed for people who have NEVER held a raw card in hand to spend 10s of thousands on a collection or "investment" as they are called more often now. This has not only brought more people into the hobby but lots more money as well. How much is the "hobby" valued at? Billions? What percentage of the value is in a TPG?
I also disagree that the courts would hold the seller accountable unless it was proved beyond a doubt that they purposely misrepresented an item they sold. PSA is considered the expert, not Probstein. And why would a 100 hobby guys hold weight over PSA? If one engineer says a bridge isn't safe but 100 towns folk say "its fine" who will the courts listen to?
Probstein has a responsibility to his consignor and buyer and really no one else. No one hear is accusing him of altering cards to my knowledge...he is peddling his wares like he always has. Has PSA been notified? How about PSA step in and try to correct the problem? Like someone else said, the auction will run its course and then the buyer and PSA will work it out. It would be nice to see Probstein do something, I just do not think its his responsibility at this point and I think the courts would agree.

[Rich Klein]

Ed:

I respectfully disagree with you. Because I pretty much guarantee you that the verbiage on EBay auctions featuring the reputable 3rd party graders absolve the seller in these cases. You know, the no returns on graded cards, we're just an outlet to sell these cards, etc. types of notes on auctions.

I would wager Rick and his team already has situations such as this and they have language in their auctions to protect them.

And, IMHO, if PSA or Beckett or SGC gets something wrong, unless it's something easily catchable, guess what, I'm going with that they say the grade is as a seller.

While perhaps with this pub about this card, Rick and his team should pull this auction until further notice as a protection, it's not their job to examine every single card in a slab sent to them. REA has the luxury of months of research and even with that, they had to pull a bunch of auto items in the past year or two IIRC. That does not mean they did anything wrong but they missed as well. We all miss things. Period end of sentence.

[edhans]

Valid points by both Rich and Steven. I still think the seller is liable for the products he sells, regardless of any third party opinion or any exculpatory clauses on their website, contract, etc. If it's a fake, the seller would be responsible for damages. Period. The seller would, no doubt, have a claim on the TPG that made the error.

To be clear, my posts in this thread are not a commentary on Probstein, the auction in question, or any other dealer or auction house. They were directed at those who like to hide behind the mistakes of a grading company.

[rainier2004]

Originally Posted by edhans

To be clear, my posts in this thread are not a commentary on Probstein, the auction in question, or any other dealer or auction house. They were directed at those who like to hide behind the mistakes of a grading company.

Agreed...

[drcy]

Originally Posted by edhans

In an extreme case, if a dealer sells a graded card that proves to be counterfeit, I believe the courts would hold the seller, not the grader, responsible for damages.

I believe that in a court case, if the defendant has clear proof that the card he was sold was a fake or altered, the judge will only care that the card is fake or altered and not give weight to an independent opinion that is clearly wrong. Doesn't matter what certificate it comes with or what is the standard hobby etiquette, if the sold as gold and diamond ring is proven to be brass and quartz, the judge is going to rule seller gets his money back.

I believe that some people here are mistaking "hobby norms" for what would hold up in a court of law.

[Exhibitman]

Not necessarily. A buyer and seller can agree as to who bears the risk and a court will generally enforce it absent proof of fraud, which is very hard to prove. If I sell a card as a PSA 8 Joe Shlabotnik and it is, you are not going to win a case against me with some other opinion as to authenticity or condition, especially if the auction rules state all sales are as is buyer beware.

Now the card in question here is a close call because it looks to be trimmed but we don’t know the behind the scenes with PSA. If PSA is aware and has re-examined the card I would sell it but disclose the history even if PSA said it is ok. Or offer to allow the consignor to take it back and pursue PSA. I am abundantly cautious.

[Neal]

Originally Posted by Exhibitman

I’m with Probstein on this one. If PSA screwed up PSA needs to fix it. Probstein is selling PSA’s opinion, not his own.

yup

[CW]

On one hand, I can see what you guys above are saying about the onus being on PSA to fix this. But on the other hand, if this item was in REA and it was brought to Brian's attention, you know damn well that he would be proactive and at least contact PSA (and more likely he would pull the item after investigating).

As David (drcy) said above, when it's this cut and dry, and the card is serial numbered and undeniably altered, the AH should take some action other than throwing their hands up and saying there's nothing they can do about it because it came from a forum.

[seablaster]

Originally Posted by CW

On one hand, I can see what you guys above are saying about the onus being on PSA to fix this. But on the other hand, if this item was in REA and it was brought to Brian's attention, you know damn well that he would be proactive and at least contact PSA (and more likely he would pull the item after investigating).

As David (drcy) said above, when it's this cut and dry, and the card is serial numbered and undeniably altered, the AH should take some action other than throwing their hands up and saying there's nothing they can do about it because it came from a forum.

This.

[RedsFan1941]

Originally Posted by CW

On one hand, I can see what you guys above are saying about the onus being on PSA to fix this. But on the other hand, if this item was in REA and it was brought to Brian's attention, you know damn well that he would be proactive and at least contact PSA (and more likely he would pull the item after investigating).

As David (drcy) said above, when it's this cut and dry, and the card is serial numbered and undeniably altered, the AH should take some action other than throwing their hands up and saying there's nothing they can do about it because it came from a forum.

actually, go back and look at the REA fall auction, specifically the high grade 52Topps (PSA 7s and 8s) that were sold. I was surprised how many time REA description pointed out the possibility of a trim. when was the last time an eBay seller included that kind of info in a description. When people here talk about how buying on ebay is so much better than dealing with an AH (one that does things right, at least), I shake my head. If you buy all your high dollar cards on eBay instead of an auction house that knows what it is doing AND has integrity, then you are just treading water until you get ripped off.

[drcy]

That people don't think that an auction house should remove, or change the description so that it's accurate, an item that is a fake or misidentified-- in particular when the auction house knows it's a fake or misidentified--, says a lot about the current auction system. If hobby standard practices overrule what should be common sense and what would be considered clear ethical behavior to anyone and everyone outside the hobby, it says the standard practices are bad and the system has been corrupted.

[oldjudge]

Originally Posted by drcy

That people don't think that an auction house should remove, or change the description so that it's accurate, an item that is a fake or misidentified-- in particular when the auction house knows it's a fake or misidentified--, says a lot about the current auction system. If hobby standard practices overrule what should be common sense and what would be considered clear ethical behavior to anyone and everyone outside the hobby, it says the standard practices are bad.

And how does Probstein know this, because someone sent him an email? Should he take this opinion over the opinion of the largest grading service? REA is very knowledgeable; they can intelligently opine on condition. Probstein probably knows as much about cards as your grocery's butcher.

[PiratesWS1979]

Originally Posted by Exhibitman

I’m with Probstein on this one. If PSA screwed up PSA needs to fix it. Probstein is selling PSA’s opinion, not his own.

For such an in demand card featuring Lebron and Jordan's signature, I'm sure Rick and Joe Orlando have already spoke about it. My guess as to why the auction has not been taken down is Rick took the card on consignment assuming the PSA grade was legit. Also, you can't assume the consignee was the person who did the alleged trimming.

I would bet PSA or Joe Orlando himself will purchase the card under the "grade guarantee", never to be seen again.

[aconte]

I think Probstein should take the auction down.

[egbeachley]

Originally Posted by Exhibitman

I’m with Probstein on this one. If PSA screwed up PSA needs to fix it. Probstein is selling PSA’s opinion, not his own.

Agree as well. This needs to sell first in order for a price to be established so then the buyer can get reimbursement from PSA from their warranty.

[oldjudge]

Probstein is a conduit between seller and buyer. My guess is that if you assume he knows nothing about cards you won't be far off. He relies on third party graders---fault PSA not Probstein. I also suggest the title of this post be amended; I think it misleads people into thinking Probstein did something wrong.

[rainier2004]

Originally Posted by MattyC

So despite all the Blowout Sturm und Drang, the facts seem to be: a trimmed card got past the goalie and wound up in a slab, and then on eBay.

I think as some have rightly and calmly pointed out here, to rectify this situation PSA should be contacted, and if they feel the card is a mistake, they will contact the seller, who will pull it. They also have a policy in place which allows for the buyer of the trimmed card to be reimbursed.

Seems pretty straightforward to me, in terms of how to rationally handle the situation. I don't know about a "black eye" for a high volume internet seller for merely listing the item; I don't do that for a living, yet I don't expect someone in that position to scrutinize this particular card for trimming, or somehow decide to track down a scan of the card in a prior holder, and find the trim job. It seems like a flat out mistake by the grader, and human error happens. When it does, if there's a path and process to correct it, we simply should walk that path and then see if we achieve a solution. If I were the seller I would contact PSA and initiate the process.

Well said and I completely agree...I think this just shows what CAN get by PSA, no TPG should be the end all-be all and common sense and knowledge still can go a long ways in the hobby.