Joe Doyle N.Y. NAT'L and it's 11 "cousins"......PART 2

[steve B]

That's good enough for me, 7% is consistent with one position on a sheet roughly 14 cards tall. (12 is only around 8%, so a pretty wide range of other sizes work too.) So it makes sense if they missed a bit on one location while doing the repair.

[Bpm0014]

The repair done on the Doyle from all indications was simply stoning off the unwanted "Natl". I think the cards showing remnants of the N are solid evidence of that being done.

Is there a premium on these cards? I have a Doyle with a pretty neat portion of the NY Nat'l. Actually just a piece of the first N. But really neat....

[tedzan]

Originally Posted by steve B

That's good enough for me, 7% is consistent with one position on a sheet roughly 14 cards tall. (12 is only around 8%, so a pretty wide range of other sizes work too.) So it makes sense if they missed a bit on one location while doing the repair.

Hey Steve

My records indicate 16 cards of Joe Doyle with printer's mark from a survey of 204 samples.....resulting in 7.9 %.



............................................l..... .................................................. ..............…....l Printer's Mark




TED Z

T206 Reference
.

[Jantz]

Ted,

Please correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't the Doyle Nat'L (on the left) that you posted a fake?

Jantz

[tedzan]

Hi Jantz

You are correct, it is a re-print. I'm searching to find my scan of the real Doyle Nat'L card I had in Photobucket.
But, as you know Photobucket is now useless. So, for comparison's sake I posted this one.
When I find my real Joe Doyle scan, I will replace this reprint.

Anyhow, for now it serves the purpose of this display.


TED Z

T206 Reference
.

[tedzan]

OK Jantz....I found my scan of the real Joe Doyle Nat'L card, and I have replaced the re-printed one in the above post.


TED Z

T206 Reference
.

[tedzan]

The Joe Doyle N. Y. Nat'l card was printed ONLY with the PIEDMONT 350 back. American Lithographic (ALC) caught their mistake very quickly on the Joe Doyle card's
caption (Doyle was a pitcher for the NY Highlanders), and removed the "Nat'L" lettering. The initial press runs on the T206 backs usually being PIEDMONT 350.
Notwithstanding ALC's quick caption correction.....several Joe Doyle error cards were shipped to Factory #25 in Virginia. How many were inserted into PIEDMONT packs
we will never know. To date, exactly 9 of these Joe Doyle error cards have been confirmed **.
Furthermore, my research has revealed that 2 (perhaps a 3rd) of the 9 known Doyle N. Y. Nat'L cards have been discovered in original collections which have emanated
from the greater Atlanta area.

The Georgia connection with the Joe Doyle error card and the Elite 11 cards may be just a coincidence. Or, may be real as my original theory proposes here in Post #1.





POP Report data (for whatever it's worth, as I'm sure there are some crossed-over cards in these tallies). Note the close comparison to the known Doyle error cards.

Elite 11 ..............SGC + PSA......Ungraded (mine)

Dahlen (Boston)........... 4 ................. 2

Ewing......................... 9 ................. 2

Ganley....................... 15 ................ 1

Tom Jones.................. 11 ................ 1

Karger........................ 11 ................ 1

Lindaman.................... 9 .................. 1

Lundgren (Cubs)......... 13 .................. 2

Mullin.......................... 1 .................. 4

Schaefer (Detroit)......... 7 .................. 1

Al Shaw...................... 10 ................. 1

Spencer....................... 4 .................. 0



** Note....a number of "fake" Doyle error cards have surfaced since the late 1980's. Some of these were even graded. The most notorious one with a POLAR BEAR back.



TED Z

T206 Reference
.

[Luke]

Ted, did you miss my reply and Pat's reply earlier?

It's cool to try and think outside the box and come up with theories, but this one is completely misguided and replies on false premises. I think it would be better if you made it clear these are just ideas you have when you post stuff like this. You write it as if it's fact, and people who are less knowledgeable about the set might read it and believe it's true because you have a reputation as a guy who knows T206s.

There's no connection between Doyle and the Elite 11 because they are from different print groups. Doyle was never printed on the same sheet with any of the Elite 11 poses.

The Elite 11 poses were never printed side-by-side. You're misunderstanding their connection. They are connected, but it's because their careers changed soon after T206 production began and they were pulled from production early in the Piedmont 350 print run. You actually mention in your post the specific reasons that each players was pulled from the set. So, you do understand it, you're just going one step too far by suggesting that they were printed next to each other on the same sheet.

We know from Pat's research that they were not printed together. They were placed randomly on sheets just like every other pose. In order for all of the Elite 11 poses to be printed together, ALC would have had to sit down at the beginning of T206 production and said, "Alright, Dahlen is going to get released in October 1909, Ewing is going to get traded January 20th 1910, Ganley will get selected off waivers by Philadelphia on May 18th, 1909, Lindaman, Lundgren, and Shaw will be out of the Majors in a year... So, we should place these 11 poses next to each other for easy removal from the set in a year or so."

In other words, they would have had to see into the future in order to place them side-by-side on a sheet. You saying that those 11 poses were next to each other on a sheet is the same thing as me saying all the Hall of Famers from the T206 set were side-by-side on a sheet. I'm using a connection that could only be made years later, and misapplying it.

Here's a Piedmont 150 sheet that shows that Schaefer, Mullin and Lindaman were not next to each other.

https://photos.imageevent.com/patric.../Sheet%203.jpg

[tedzan]

Originally Posted by tedzan

Hey Steve

My records indicate 16 cards of Joe Doyle with printer's mark from a survey of 204 samples.....resulting in 7.9 %.



.............................................^.... .................................................. .........................^ Printer's Mark




TED Z

T206 Reference
.

Hi Brendan

Depicted here is my "poor man's" Joe Doyle error card. All 16 of these Doyle's that I have seen with this Printer's Mark look exactly like this one.
So, I'm curious if your card is similar to this one, or does your card show more of the lower left of the "N" ?

Anyhow, that tiny remnant mark is approx. 1/70th of the Nat'L lettering. So, given a typical value of 70,000 for a real Joe Doyle error card, then
pro-rating this Mark's influence on this Joe Doyle card results in a value of approx. 1000


TED Z

T206 Reference
.

[Bpm0014]

Thanks fellas! I'll send a scan as soon as I get home. It's definitely noticeable...

[Bpm0014]

Pic 1 (on right)

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Pic 2

[Bpm0014]

Pic 3